[Public-List] Hello from Vancouver. (Somewhat) proud newowner of Antares 1967 A30.

[Mike Lehman]

Jeremy

The long screws through the bottom provide no support at all. Once they are 
removed you may find that the delamination is more pronounced, if the screws 
are holding the layers together.

An understanding of how the beam was originally constructed and why it 
failed is helpful to understand how it can be repaired.

1. Whitby Boat works used the wrong kind of glue to laminate the beam. Maybe 
it was the only kind available at the time the boats were manufactured. The 
glue failed and the laminations separated causing the beam to lose its 
strength.
2. This failure was exacerbated by the fact that Whitby also countersunk the 
two center bolts that hold the deck mast plate in place by several inches in 
the middle of the beam where most of the load is exerted by the mast. You 
can dig the large bungs out from the underside of the beam to see just how 
far these bolts were countersunk and it will reveal that the beam is only 
1/2 or less as thick as it appears on the outside.
3. Further complicating the problem is that the mast does not sit directly 
over the beam. Only the forward edge of the mast sits on the beam so any 
pressure on the after part of the mast causes the beam to twist and the deck 
to deform behind the mast. Because your beam shows signs deformity you will 
notice a depression of the deck behind the mast. The deck sits directly on 
the beam. When this deformation occurs the fiberglass tabbing on the 
underside of the deck cracks and pulls away from the beam and the underside 
of the deck. This tabbing is not structural, so any attempt to repair the 
tabbing will fail without fixing the beam problem.
4. The bolts Whitby used to secure the bulkheads through the beam are 1/4" 
bolts often threaded all the way to the head of the bolt. These are not 
sufficient fasteners. They only provide about .19" of diameter. When you 
remove the bolts you will probably find they are bent. For the repair you 
should replace these bolts with 5/16" bolts (.3125" diameter) that are 
threaded only on the ends. This same bolt replacement is recommended for all 
of the chainplate bolts.

The repair can be accomplished in several ways...
1. remove the beam and construct/install a new beam as Glenn has suggested
2. Install aluminum (or stainless steel if you have plenty of money) sister 
plates on each side of the beam. 3/8" aluminum plates are plenty strong for 
the repair.

The big advantage to replacing the beam is appearance. On the boats on the 
Chesapeake we have used option #2. Early attempts with only one aluminum 
plate failed. The 2 plate solution has never failed or moved even in 
extremely heavy weather conditions over many years.

Here are the steps for doing the aluminum repair, if that is how you choose 
to proceed.

1. Remove the mast or loosen the rigging a lot.
2. Use a jack and plenty of supports on the floor to spread the load as you 
jack the beam into place. Check the rigging periodically to make sure it is 
loose if the mast is on.
3. Once you have firm support, remove the bolts from the beam. Do not try to 
jack the beam into place all at once. Do this over several days adding 
increased pressure until you have the proper curvature. It may not be 
possible to get all of the deflection out. While doing this you will hear 
the boat creak...this is normal.
4. Remove all of the old tabbing and clean up the beam and the underside of 
the deck by sanding to remove any paint or tabbing residue.
5. Have the aluminum plates ready to install
6. clamp either the forward or rear plate in place and drill out the 1/4" 
holes with a 5/16" bit and drill all the way through the aluminum. Insert a 
bolt in each hole as they are drilled to prevent any movement on the plate 
as you are drilling.
7. After the one plate is drilled, clamp the plate to the other side of the 
beam. Remove a bolt from plate #1 and drill in the opposite direction to 
drill through the second plate. Push the bolt all the way through and attach 
a nut. Do this with each hole until all of the pieces are 'dry' fitted 
together.
8. Remove both plates and all of the bolts. Be sure to mark each plate so 
you know which side faces out away from the beam.
9. Using epoxy and fiberglass tape install all new tabbing.
10. while the tabbing is curing, etch the inside of the plates that will be 
in contact with the beam with aluminum etch (I use the West System 2-part 
etch).
11. Once the plates are dry, apply a liberal amount of thickened epoxy to 
the beam. For this I have found that West System Six-10 epoxy in the 
cartridge works the best and has superior strength. Apply a bead of epoxy 
and spread evenly with a plastic spatula like the ones used by auto body 
shops. Be sure to add a bit more epoxy to the areas of the beams where there 
are cracks. It will require 2 tubes of six-10 epoxy.
12. install the plate on the epoxied side of the beam and insert the bolts. 
Repeat the procedure for the other side.
13. Once both plates are installed tighten all the bolts to "blue-faced" 
torque and follow a systematic tightening process by tightening each bolt a 
little at a time. Epoxy will ooze out from around the edges of the beam. 
More importantly epoxy will be forced into all of the cracks adding strength 
back to the original beam.
14. clean up the excess epoxy use it to make fillets and let the hole thing 
cure for 24-48 hours before removing the jack.
15. To prevent beam twist, add additional supports under the beam along the 
bulkhead stiffeners. These can be seen at 
http://alberg30.org/maintenance/disorganized/deckbeam/repair/

Hope this helps...good luck!


Mike Lehman

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>
-----Original Message----- 
From: Jeremy Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Hello from Vancouver. (Somewhat) proud newowner 
of Antares 1967 A30.

Thanks all for the good advice so far.
The beam looks better than it is I suspect, they drove long screws through 
from the bottom to hold it together.

With the repair what I'm not sure about is that dip down in the fiberglass, 
it should be concave there, not convex, yet my deck looks fine on top.  It 
is a greater dip down, as you can see in the center of the picture, the arch 
is reversed in the center.  This convex area is deeper than the difference 
in the paint line in the v berth, it appears fiberglass was later applied in 
the area as though a repair was made.  I am concerned about what is in 
there, and damaging whatever may have been done.

Re solid beam: it seems the metal plate repair has stood the test of time 
very well in many boats.  I'm generally inclined to stick to known and tried 
solutions when possible.
If it comes time to sell, a known, proven upgrade or fix is best I suspect.


With a4x10x length of arch piece of purple heart I'd be more inclined to do 
it that way, since it has such dense tough structure, but that is a very 
expensive piece of wood... my dad was talking same dimensions as stock and 
fir or microlam which I won't do.
An in place lamination makes sense to me, or overkill size of beam.
Was it 10 horizontal, or vertical with an arch cut in?  It sounds very 
appealing and strong either way.







Glennb <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:

Hello Jeremy,

I agree with your father regarding shaping a new mast support out of wood 
with a bandsaw,  I did that on my boat a few years ago and am very happy 
every time I look at at it.  the aluminim fix is undoubtedly quick to 
install and probably distributes the compression loading loading from the 
mast properly.  but it is not seamanship like, in my mind, to bolt a piece 
of metal over an old, failing beam and call it good. what happens when the 
old beam further delaminates and starts to twist around behind the aluminum 
plate? Which it will do eventually... I replaced my beam with a 4" x 10" 
length of purple hart, radiused down to fit the camber of the cabin and have 
no problems since. it looks great with a couple coats of varnish.   if you 
take the extra care to do it right the first time you will have a permanent 
fix, and restore value to the boat.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with day sailing as Is.  your beam looks like 
it's in much better shape than mine was, and I sailed the boat around Puget 
Sound for three years before replacing the beam.  also, I would let the 
improper thru hull Hose thing slow you down.  there are usually only five or 
six  thru hulls on the boat, including cockpit drain, so you could fairly 
quickly replace the hoses that are suspect and alleviate any risk.   also 
shut off the gate valves when you are not on board! no water can come in, if 
the valves are closed... Cheap insurance!

have fun with the boat.  They are very seaworthy craft.

Cheers
Glenn Brooks
dolce 318



Sent from my iPad

On Jul 25, 2012, at 12:42 PM, "Noonan, Jim (WB)" <Jim.Noonan at warnerbros.com> 
wrote:

> Jeremy, I'm not an attorney (nor do I play one on TV) but I was struck by 
> the response of your surveyor when you asked about the engine as well as 
> the complete lack of good faith and professionalism in the report you got. 
> If you signed a contract with the surveyor I would suggest having a lawyer 
> take a quick look at it. If the surveyor didn't live up to the contractual 
> obligation a letter from the attorney might lead to some kind of 
> settlement that would help pay to fix the problems that should have been 
> made clear to you. I am no fan of lawyers and law suits but if it wasn't 
> his job to tell you that the engine wasn't as advertised and point out the 
> other problems what exactly was his job. Sorry you had this experience but 
> I think it is terrific that you've remained so positive. Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org 
> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:37 PM
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: [Public-List] Hello from Vancouver. (Somewhat) proud new owner of 
> Antares 1967 A30.
>
> I'm new to large boats, I sailed dinghy's as a kid, but this is a totally 
> new world for me :-) Both good and bad so far.
> I've landed an amazing job out of it working for a great guy who has a 
> shop here in Vancouver.  I'm working on boats of all sizes, and learning 
> skills that directly relate to working on my boat, and contacts who are 
> able to help with some areas as well.  I'm learning a lot quickly, and 
> though in hindsight I never would have taken on a project like this boat, 
> I'm thankful for all that I'm learning.
> I'll get the bad out of the way first, since there is a fair bit of it, 
> feel free to skip over it if it's too long.
>
> *****start of bad*****
>
> I bought her based on an advertisement that sadly didn't match what she 
> actually was, from the supposedly brand new engine, sails, head and 
> wiring, to the aluminium plate which I was told was glassed in flat over 
> top of the beam to strengthen it.  She was supposed to have a much larger 
> 40 gallon water and at least 30 gallon diesel tank.
>
> What I've got is a boat with good bones, and the signs that somewhere in 
> her past someone cared for her well before the more recent, and unknown 
> number of butchers got their hands on her.
> It seems that the owner I purchased her from was sold the same story I 
> was, and passed it along, whether with full knowledge of what he was 
> actually selling by the end or not I still don't know.  He says he was 
> misled, and I am inclined to believe him, he seems like a decent guy.  He 
> reimbursed me part of the sale, but that money has already gone, I sorted 
> out most of the electrical system with it.
> My engine is 16 years older than I was led to believe, sail appears to be 
> in good order, but I believe it to be about a decade older than I was told 
> now. Electrical was a total write off, speaker wire all over the place, 
> two hots in one cable split and common grounds later, melted insulation 
> and household twist connectors all over.
>
> My surveyor noted the engine as being new on paper, but later stated that 
> it wasn't his job to tell me these things, and that he knew it was older 
> at the time, but since the seller and I were happy with the age we stated 
> it was, it wasn't his position to tell us we were wrong.
> He didn't mention the broken tabbing in various places, or the delaminated 
> mast beam that was "repaired" with household grade Robertson screws driven 
> in from the bottom to hold the lamination together.
> He also listed the water tank as 30 gallons, but it turns out to be about 
> 15, as soon as I figured out on my own later how to open it, I knew it was 
> nowhere near that.
>
> I'm starting to make the needed changes to make her safe, comfortable and 
> generally back to what she should be, then hopefully doing some upgrading 
> and cosmetic work when I have time, I have taken a slip for a year since 
> she isn't safe to anchor out in in my opinion, hoses with glued on ends 
> single clamped over the threaded end of a sea-cock and a bit of electrical 
> tape as sealant didn't leave me confident enough until I go through her 
> top to bottom and end to end.
>
> I unfortunately can't see the numbers in my picture of the number-plate, 
> but I'll get the hull number soon from that to update the list in case she 
> isn't on there.
>
> I've determined that the mast she has is likely not original, it has a 
> sticker for a North Vancouver shop on it near the base, there are rumors 
> that she may have made some long trips, but beyond that I have little 
> history.
>
> One of the butchers unfortunately had access to a sawzall or skil saw and 
> remodeled the V-berth badly.
>
> *********end of bad****
>
> The electrical is resolved to the point that it's safe, though details 
> such as lighting still need to be sorted. The next logical step for me I 
> think is to resolve the issues with the mast beam, and interior 
> fiberglass, basically redoing the tabbing, this will be done by a 
> professional, who is fast and good at it, I'm paying his hourly and 
> materials at wholesale rahter than a shop-rate, since he also works for 
> the same guy I do.
>
> As for the mast beam I am not sure quite how to approach it, it appears to 
> have the classic de-lamination, but with a twist, the deck dips down in 
> the center inside, but no water pooling or signs of issues on deck.  When 
> tapped it sounds solid, and I'm wondering if someone did something inside 
> like replacing the core.
> The beam is flattened in the middle, but I'm not sure if it quite matches 
> the curve of the deck inside, I have photographs but I'm not sure how to 
> post them.
> Once i know what is going on with the cabintop, I'll be fixing the beam I 
> hope, my father wants me to excavate it, and simply bandsaw a solid piece 
> of wood to replace it, or a microlam beam bandsawn to fit.  He feels that 
> the aluminium plate repair doesn't do much to help, and is not an 
> appropriate solution.
>
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