From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.211.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <mailman.212.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.213.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
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From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com> <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net> <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <mailman.214.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
> For details and to order, go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <mailman.215.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS!
> For details and to order, go to:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.216.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>



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From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
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From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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>
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>


--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.217.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail> <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.218.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.219.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.220.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <mailman.221.1304010451.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <mailman.222.1304010452.5010.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
>         Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
> Greetings
>         at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
>                          cute, cool and animated cards.
>            <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing15 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.211.1396849735.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <mailman.212.1396849736.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.213.1396849736.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
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From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com> <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net> <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <mailman.214.1396849736.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
> For details and to order, go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <mailman.215.1396849736.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS!
> For details and to order, go to:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>
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>



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.216.1396849736.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>



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From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
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From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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>
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>


--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.217.1396849737.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail> <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.218.1396849737.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.219.1396849737.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.220.1396849737.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <mailman.221.1396849737.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <mailman.222.1396849737.62883.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
>         Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
> Greetings
>         at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
>                          cute, cool and animated cards.
>            <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing15 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.211.1399652220.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <mailman.212.1399652220.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.213.1399652221.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
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From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com> <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net> <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <mailman.214.1399652221.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
> For details and to order, go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <mailman.215.1399652221.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS!
> For details and to order, go to:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.216.1399652221.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>



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From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
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From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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>
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>


--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.217.1399652221.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail> <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.218.1399652222.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.219.1399652222.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.220.1399652222.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <mailman.221.1399652222.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <mailman.222.1399652222.7408.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
>         Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
> Greetings
>         at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
>                          cute, cool and animated cards.
>            <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing15 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.211.1433287476.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <mailman.212.1433287478.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.213.1433287480.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1, 99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
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From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com> <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net> <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <mailman.214.1433287482.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13, 99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
> For details and to order, go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <mailman.215.1433287483.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14, 99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS!
> For details and to order, go to:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>
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>



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.216.1433287483.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>



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From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
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From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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>
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>


--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.217.1433287485.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16, 99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail> <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.218.1433287486.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.219.1433287487.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20, 99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <mailman.220.1433287487.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22, 99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <mailman.221.1433287488.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <mailman.222.1433287490.14748.public-list-alberg30.org@lists.alberg30.org>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman" at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
>         Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
> Greetings
>         at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
>                          cute, cool and animated cards.
>            <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing15 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard
	Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205062.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1,
	99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205642.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936221473.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936235187.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
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 936248708.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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 936247453.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936247602.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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 936247912.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936248180.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936252346.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936265815.0

From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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 936272028.0

From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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 936279459.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1,
	99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936279631.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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 936284113.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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 936287814.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
	<4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936293661.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936296711.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
> programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter4 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 936304542.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> Drawing is held each week through September 17.  For details go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Teaser116 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

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 936306645.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist members: don't miss out on the latest news at ONElist
> Join our community member news update at
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter5 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 936293315.0

From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 936324015.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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 936336311.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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 936337073.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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 936337667.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
	<002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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 936391141.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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 936451291.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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 936170920.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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 936861573.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 936887616.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
	<37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> > programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
> > <a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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 936869486.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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 937009481.0

From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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 937013860.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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 937027984.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937017380.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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 937195043.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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 937196379.0

From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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 937233920.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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 937234571.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937235847.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937241731.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13,
	99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937241819.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937246971.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937252219.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937282427.0

From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
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>
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>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937310206.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14,
	99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937317105.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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 937320952.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
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 937321299.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>



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 937358938.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937359763.0

From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937365603.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons!
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>
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>



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 937438862.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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 937446416.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937447641.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453142.0

From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453393.0

From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937488382.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
> > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
> today!
> >      <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937497188.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937504535.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937506841.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936657759.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937511482.0

From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>
>
>
>
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>



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 937490601.0

From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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 937521905.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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 937536523.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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 937537341.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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 937528369.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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 937554173.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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 937554055.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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 937553419.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16,
	99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937576225.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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 937582935.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937588662.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937596887.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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 937597299.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
	<001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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 937620330.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937632958.0

From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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 937609797.0

From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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 937689830.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937717158.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937802662.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937803060.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937833289.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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 937846601.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937862248.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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 937886185.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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 937876761.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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 937883938.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937889770.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20,
	99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937918877.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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 937921787.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017615.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017488.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017509.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22,
	99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938040231.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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 938092811.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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 938127998.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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 938132428.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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 936696531.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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 938179877.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938191720.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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Greetings
	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
	   <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing11 ">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938192295.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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Greetings
	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
	   <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing11 ">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938193284.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938391022.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938403990.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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 938443865.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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 938448889.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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 938477022.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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 938466918.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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 938469156.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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 938493429.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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 938510824.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938524873.0

From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938532544.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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 938567604.0

From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 938570990.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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 938578767.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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 938579108.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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 938605055.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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 938605120.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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 938602687.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman"
	at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938617800.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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 938618923.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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 938619283.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938663365.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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 938745918.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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 938748553.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard
	Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205062.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1,
	99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205642.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936221473.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936235187.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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 936248708.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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 936247453.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936247602.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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 936247912.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936248180.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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 936252346.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936265815.0

From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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 936272028.0

From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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 936279459.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1,
	99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936279631.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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 936284113.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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 936287814.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
	<4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936293661.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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 936296711.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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 936304542.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
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 936306645.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
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 936293315.0

From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 936324015.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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 936336311.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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 936337073.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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 936337667.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
	<002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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 936391141.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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 936451291.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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 936170920.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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 936861573.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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 936887616.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
	<37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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 936869486.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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 937009481.0

From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
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 937013860.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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 937027984.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937017380.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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 937195043.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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 937196379.0

From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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 937233920.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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 937234571.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937235847.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937241731.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13,
	99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
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> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937241819.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937246971.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937252219.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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 937282427.0

From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist:  your connection to people who share your interests.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937310206.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14,
	99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937317105.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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 937320952.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> For details and to order, go to:
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> 
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 937321299.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>



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 937358938.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937359763.0

From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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 937365603.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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 937438862.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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 937446416.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937447641.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453142.0

From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453393.0

From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937488382.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
> today!
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> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> 
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>            that you can access anytime and anywhere.
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> 
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> 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937497188.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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 937504535.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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 937506841.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936657759.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937511482.0

From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>
>
>
>
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 937490601.0

From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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 937521905.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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 937536523.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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 937537341.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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 937528369.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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 937554173.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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 937554055.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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 937553419.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16,
	99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937576225.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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 937582935.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937588662.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937596887.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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 937597299.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
	<001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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 937620330.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937632958.0

From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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>
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 937609797.0

From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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 937689830.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937717158.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937802662.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937803060.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937833289.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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 937846601.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937862248.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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 937886185.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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 937876761.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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 937883938.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937889770.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20,
	99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937918877.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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 937921787.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017615.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017488.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938017509.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22,
	99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938040231.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938092811.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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 938127998.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938132428.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936696531.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938179877.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938191720.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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Greetings
	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
	   <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing11 ">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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 938192295.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938193284.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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 938391022.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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 938403990.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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 938443865.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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 938448889.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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 938477022.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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 938466918.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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 938469156.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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 938493429.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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 938510824.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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 938524873.0

From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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 938532544.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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 938567604.0

From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 938570990.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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 938578767.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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 938579108.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605055.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605120.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938602687.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman"
	at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938617800.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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 938618923.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938619283.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938663365.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
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> ----------------------------
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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 938745918.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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 938748553.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard
	Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205062.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1,
	99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936205642.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936221473.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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> CONNECT to people with the same interests.
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936235187.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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 936248708.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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 936247453.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936247602.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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 936247912.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936248180.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936252346.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936265815.0

From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936272028.0

From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936279459.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1,
	99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936279631.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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 936284113.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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 936287814.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
	<4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936293661.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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 936296711.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936304542.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

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 936306645.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist members: don't miss out on the latest news at ONElist
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 936293315.0

From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 936324015.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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 936336311.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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 936337073.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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 936337667.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
	<002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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 936391141.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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 936451291.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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 936170920.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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 936861573.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 936887616.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
	<37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> > programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
> > <a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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 936869486.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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 937009481.0

From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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 937013860.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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 937027984.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937017380.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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 937195043.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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 937196379.0

From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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 937233920.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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 937234571.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937235847.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937241731.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13,
	99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937241819.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937246971.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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 937252219.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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 937282427.0

From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist:  your connection to people who share your interests.
>
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>


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 937310206.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14,
	99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937317105.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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 937320952.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
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 937321299.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>



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 937358938.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937359763.0

From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937365603.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons!
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 937438862.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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 937446416.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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 937447641.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453142.0

From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453393.0

From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
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 937488382.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
> today!
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> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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 937497188.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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 937504535.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937506841.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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>


--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936657759.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937511482.0

From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>
>
>
>
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 937490601.0

From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937521905.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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 937536523.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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 937537341.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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 937528369.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937554173.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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 937554055.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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 937553419.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16,
	99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937576225.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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 937582935.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937588662.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937596887.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937597299.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
	<001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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 937620330.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937632958.0

From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>     GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
> Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in
> forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons!
>                  http://www.onelist.com/ad/gator1
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937609797.0

From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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 937689830.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937717158.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937802662.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937803060.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937833289.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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 937846601.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937862248.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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 937886185.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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 937876761.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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 937883938.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937889770.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20,
	99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937918877.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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 937921787.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938017615.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938017488.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938017509.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22,
	99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 938040231.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938092811.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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 938127998.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938132428.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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 936696531.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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 938179877.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938191720.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938192295.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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 938193284.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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 938391022.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938403990.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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 938443865.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938448889.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938477022.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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 938466918.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938469156.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938493429.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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 938510824.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938524873.0

From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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 938532544.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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 938567604.0

From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 938570990.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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 938578767.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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 938579108.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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 938605055.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605120.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938602687.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman"
	at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938617800.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938618923.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938619283.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938663365.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
>         Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
> Greetings
>         at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
>                          cute, cool and animated cards.
>            <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing15 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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 938745918.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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 938748553.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard
	Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205062.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1,
	99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205642.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936221473.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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> CONNECT to people with the same interests.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936235187.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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>
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>
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 936248708.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936247453.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936247602.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936247912.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936248180.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online today!
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936252346.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936265815.0

From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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 936272028.0

From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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 936279459.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1,
	99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936279631.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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 936284113.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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 936287814.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
	<4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936293661.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936296711.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
> programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter4 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 936304542.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> Drawing is held each week through September 17.  For details go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Teaser116 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

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 936306645.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist members: don't miss out on the latest news at ONElist
> Join our community member news update at
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter5 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 936293315.0

From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 936324015.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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 936336311.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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 936337073.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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 936337667.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
	<002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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 936391141.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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 936451291.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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 936170920.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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 936861573.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 936887616.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
	<37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> > programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
> > <a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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 936869486.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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 937009481.0

From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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 937013860.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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 937027984.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937017380.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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 937195043.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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 937196379.0

From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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 937233920.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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 937234571.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937235847.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937241731.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13,
	99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937241819.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937246971.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937252219.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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 937282427.0

From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
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>
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>
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>


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 937310206.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14,
	99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937317105.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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 937320952.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937321299.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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>



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 937358938.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937359763.0

From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937365603.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>    GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!
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>forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons!
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937438862.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937446416.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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 937447641.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453142.0

From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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 937453393.0

From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online today!
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937488382.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
> > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
> today!
> >      <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
>   New!!  Free E-mail @mail.com, @usa.com, @engineer.com and more!
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>            that you can access anytime and anywhere.
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> 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937497188.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937504535.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937506841.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936657759.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937511482.0

From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
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>
>
>
>
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>



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 937490601.0

From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937521905.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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 937536523.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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 937537341.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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 937528369.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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 937554173.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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 937554055.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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 937553419.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16,
	99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937576225.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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 937582935.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937588662.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937596887.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937597299.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
	<001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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 937620330.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937632958.0

From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------




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 937609797.0

From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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 937689830.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937717158.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937802662.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937803060.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937833289.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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 937846601.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937862248.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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 937886185.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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 937876761.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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 937883938.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937889770.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20,
	99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937918877.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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 937921787.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017615.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938017488.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938017509.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22,
	99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 938040231.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938092811.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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 938127998.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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 938132428.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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 936696531.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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 938179877.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938191720.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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Greetings
	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938192295.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
	   <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing11 ">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938193284.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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 938391022.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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 938403990.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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 938443865.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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 938448889.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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 938477022.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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 938466918.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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 938469156.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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 938493429.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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 938510824.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938524873.0

From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938532544.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938567604.0

From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938570990.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938578767.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938579108.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605055.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605120.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938602687.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman"
	at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938617800.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938618923.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938619283.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938663365.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
>         --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> 
>         Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
> Greetings
>         at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
>                          cute, cool and animated cards.
>            <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing15 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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 938745918.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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 938748553.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 09:57:42 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net> from "Richard
	Hurt" at Aug 30, 99 02:18:13 pm
Message-ID: <199909011657.MAA05313@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Rick,

> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.

You might want to consider the advantage to having a spot where
little people with shor legs can hook a foot to keep from sliding 
across the bridgedeck when heeled.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205062.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep  1 10:07:22 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] re holding tank
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 1,
	99 02:21:50 am
Message-ID: <199909011707.NAA06008@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
>     I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet. 
> It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to 
> convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and 
> where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> Paul,
> Ashwagh #23

Paul,

Approved treatment systems are legal everywhere in the US except 
those places designated as "no discharge" by the EPA.  I suppose
the EPA should have a list of those places.  I would advise, however,
not discharging in anchorages or small creeks.  Pump out when you're
in deep water with a good exchange of water.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936205642.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Wed Sep  1 14:31:13 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (Robert E Johns)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:31:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <2b1ded5a.24fe1ffe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>

From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear George,
>    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
>It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>Paul,
>Ashwagh #23

Paul,

We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
reasonable answer.

Regards,
	Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936221473.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:39:14 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:39:14 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <70ad241a.24ff2132@aol.com>

This is the tank top that I made to convert the forward compartment under the 
cabin sole into a holding tank.

I used polyester resin and matte to make the top and tubes. The tubes were 
made then glassed into the top with West System epoxy and fillers. After the 
top parts were glassed in place, I coated the underside of the top and the 
hull liner with two coats of West System resin. The final mounting of the top 
was done using only 3M 5200. 

With the top in place and two weeks for the 5200 to set, I pressure tested by 
filling a long loop of hose connected to the vent line with water then 
pumping the head. The water in the hose was my pressure gage. As the air 
pressure in the tank increases, the water gets pushed up the loop. I stopped 
when I had about 5 Ft. difference in the water levels (about 2 psi). The 
fiberglass top and the 5200 passed the test (with such a large area the 2 psi 
meant that the 5200 had to resist about 1500 lb of force). With 2 psi of air 
pressure in the whole system I could then use soapy water to check tank top 
and the rest of the system for leaks. The only leak that I had was the 
inspection plate in the top. The O-ring seal leaked ever so slightly, but a 
bead of plumbers putty sealed it tight.

I did the job 2 1/2 seasons ago and it is still well.

Attached is a JPG photo (55k) of the tank top in place with the hoses 
connected.

I have additional photos if the installation but I don't want to post more 
photos unless to group wants to see them. I will email them to those 
interested.

Mark 
-------------- next part --------------
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 18:19:47 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <l03130300b3f345104db3@[204.253.76.189]>
Message-ID: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
allow raw discharge.   

Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

The world will definitely be a better place for it.

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65


Robert E Johns wrote:
> 
> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> 
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear George,
> >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed yet.
> >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
> >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
> >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >Paul,
> >Ashwagh #23
> 
> Paul,
> 
> We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
> and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
> more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
> gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
> end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
> medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
> reasonable answer.
> 
> Regards,
>         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936235187.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  1 22:05:08 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:05:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Various Questions Cont.
References: <3.0.5.32.19990830141813.007a2100@mail.metro.net>
Message-ID: <37CE0584.5B45FD20@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Richard,

My muffler basically sits on the hull on the center line, just aft of the
aluminum cross beam that the shift mechanism cable goes through.  I did not
epoxy in blocks, I used Sikaflex which is more forgiving but does not protect
the wood.  It is definitely strong enough though.

Good luck.

dls

Richard Hurt wrote:

> From: Richard Hurt <rhurt at metro.net>
>
> David,
>
> Where does your muffler physically rest?  If I need to glass in a mounting
> block, I'd like to do it prior to installing the engine.  Looks like it may
> be a tight fit working behind the engine once it is back in.
>
> Thanks to the group for the other answers regarding what to do with the
> compass recess.  At this point in the overhaul the beer holder is an
> attractive option, but with my small children I like the idea of having a
> continuous step in front of the companionway.  I'll probably not glass it
> in, but rather caulk it down to leave my option open for future use.
>
> Rick Hurt
> Corinna #531
>
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 936248708.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:44:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] PHRF QUESTION
Message-ID: <632a08aa.24ff5a9d@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Gordon, I'm sure you're right, but I was just happy that the problem was 
solved.  
And, also, I wanted to race Tuesday night.  We came in 2nd just 12 seconds 
behind 1st.  For the series now,  1si, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, with one more race to 
go.  It gets cold up here, and I can't sail in the winter.  Thanks for 
asking.  Russ

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 936247453.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:46:42 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:46:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <b5af8f81.24ff5b32@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thanks Bob. I guess the days of the Lectrasan are numbered, but I agree with 
you: it's not a reasonable answer.
Paul
Ashwagh #23


In a message dated 9/1/99 5:31:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobjns at nais.com 
writes:

> From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  
>  >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  >
>  >Dear George,
>  >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
yet.
> 
>  >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed to
>  >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where and
>  >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  >Paul,
>  >Ashwagh #23
>  
>  Paul,
>  
>  We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or two
>  and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago when
>  more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 9
>  gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. We
>  end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because of
>  medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is no
>  reasonable answer.
>  
>  Regards,
>   Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936247602.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:51:52 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:51:52 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <df60dcae.24ff5c68@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Mark, please tell me the total capacity of your tank?  
Russ Pfeiffer   (looks neat)

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 936247912.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:56:20 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:56:20 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not 
enough for much longer.
The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it 
is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and 
going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who 
won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in 
people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it, 
it is counterproductive.
Regards,
Paul
Ashwagh #23 


In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
>  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
>  allow raw discharge.   
>  
>  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
>  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  
>  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  
>  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  
>  
>  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > 
>  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >
>  > >Dear George,
>  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed 
> yet.
>  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed 
to
>  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where 
> and
>  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >Paul,
>  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > Paul,
>  > 
>  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
>  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or 
two
>  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago 
> when
>  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a 
9
>  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
>  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
>  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank. 
We
>  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
>  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
>  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because 
of
>  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
>  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
>  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is 
> no
>  > reasonable answer.
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936248180.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep  1 23:05:46 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 02:05:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob;
We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
stretch and pump out twice on average.

Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
previous statement on no discharge.

The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
to the Chesapeake experience.

Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.

At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
the changes.

Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
system much like ours.

John

RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> 
> Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
> enough for much longer.
> The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After treatment, it
> is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it and
> going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
> won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results in
> people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in it,
> it is counterproductive.
> Regards,
> Paul
> Ashwagh #23
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sunstone at idirect.com writes:
> 
> > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> >
> >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> >  allow raw discharge.
> >
> >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> >
> >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> >
> >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
> >
> >
> >  Robert E Johns wrote:
> >  >
> >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
> >  >
> >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >  > >
> >  > >Dear George,
> >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't installed
> > yet.
> >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is supposed
> to
> >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know where
> > and
> >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
> >  > >Paul,
> >  > >Ashwagh #23
> >  >
> >  > Paul,
> >  >
> >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It involved
> >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch or
> two
> >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years ago
> > when
> >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We installed a
> 9
> >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again having to
> >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want to
> >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible tank.
> We
> >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan because
> >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, it is
> >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises because
> of
> >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound north.
> >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and they
> >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
> >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. There is
> > no
> >  > reasonable answer.
> >  >
> >  > Regards,
> >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397
> 
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 936252346.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 02:50:15 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:50:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <1b2a6534.24ffa257@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Some would consider eutrophication a quite natural evolutionary process of 
which we humans are a natural part. Certainly ducks do not object to the 
gradual expansion of their habitat and, even as we are trying to prevent the 
formation of marsh in one area, we are artificially preserving it in another.
But I guess it's all a matter of balance. After all, "bears do it, bees do 
it" and they don't even macerate it and make it bacteriologically safe 
WITHOUT using chemicals, as the Lectrasan does. 
I guess I'm just questioning the impact. Is that proven in terms of numbers 
of boats in a given area?
Remember: WE are also a part of the ecology too and there's nothing 
ESSENTIALLY wrong with what the Lectrasan does.
Paul
Ashwagh
#23


In a message dated 9/2/99 2:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sunstone at idirect.com writes:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  
>  Bob;
>  We sailed a 30 for years, #544, and she had a 20 gallon holding tank in
>  the keel which allowed for 10 days of normal usage for 2 people using
>  water conservation in the flush cycle.   We cruise for 3-4 weeks at a
>  stretch and pump out twice on average.
>  
>  Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
>  can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
>  previous statement on no discharge.
>  
>  The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
>  sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
>  results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
>  to the Chesapeake experience.
>  
>  Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
>  amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
>  Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.
>  
>  At any rate it's no big deal up here and I would suggest in a few years
>  it won't be that big a deal in your community either as people adapt to
>  the changes.
>  
>  Good luck, the fellow with the keel holding tank pictures has a workable
>  system much like ours.
>  
>  John
>  
>  RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > 
>  > Yes, John, it's reasonable for weekend cruises, but 9-10 gallons is not
>  > enough for much longer.
>  > The Lectrasan does NOT dump, in your words, "raw sewage". After 
treatment, 
> it
>  > is bacteriologically clean and completely biodegradeable. Disallowing it 
> and
>  > going to "no discharge" is largely a "knee-jerk" reaction from people who
>  > won't study or don't understand the facts and figures. And if it results 
> in
>  > people dumping raw sewage anyway because they're up to their eyeballs in 
> it,
>  > it is counterproductive.
>  > Regards,
>  > Paul
>  > Ashwagh #23
>  > 
>  > In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>  > sunstone at idirect.com writes:
>  > 
>  > > From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>  > >
>  > >  Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems 
> perfectly
>  > >  reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth 
would
>  > >  allow raw discharge.
>  > >
>  > >  Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
>  > >  have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant 
without
>  > >  wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
>  > >
>  > >  The world will definitely be a better place for it.
>  > >
>  > >  John Birch, Sunstone KC-65
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  Robert E Johns wrote:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > From: Robert E Johns <bobjns at nais.com>
>  > >  >
>  > >  > >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > >Dear George,
>  > >  > >    I have a RARITAN Lectrasan somebody gave me that I havn't 
> installed
>  > > yet.
>  > >  > >It zaps the waste with about 50 amps for three minutes and is 
> supposed
>  > to
>  > >  > >convert it to be legal for discharge in some places. Do you know 
> where
>  > > and
>  > >  > >where not? I forgot what the guy told me.
>  > >  > >Paul,
>  > >  > >Ashwagh #23
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Paul,
>  > >  >
>  > >  > We installed a Lectrasan after we bought Wind Call in 1976. It 
> involved
>  > >  > rebuilding the head area including moving the panel inboard an inch 
> or
>  > two
>  > >  > and using two doors instead of three. We got rid of it a few years 
> ago
>  > > when
>  > >  > more and more places we cruise became no discharge areas. We 
> installed a
>  > 9
>  > >  > gallon holding tank in the space where the Lectrasan was, again 
> having to
>  > >  > rebuild the head. The 9 gallon size is too small, but I didn't want 
> to
>  > >  > install a holding tank under the forward berths or use a flexible 
> tank.
>  > We
>  > >  > end up causing more pollution than we ever did with the Lectrasan 
> because
>  > >  > many areas don't have pumpout stations and when we dump the tank, 
it 
> is
>  > >  > raw, though macerated, sewage. We have stopped the long cruises 
> because
>  > of
>  > >  > medical problems, but our cruising area was from Long Island Sound 
> north.
>  > >  > The most prominent place to go to no discharge is Block Island, and 
> they
>  > >  > really do enforce it, but more and more smaller places have gone no
>  > >  > discharge and it is obvious the the handwriting is on the wall. 
There 
> is
>  > > no
>  > >  > reasonable answer.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  >         Bob Johns, Wind Call, #397

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 936265815.0

From Johnnie5 at rose.net  Thu Sep  2 04:33:48 1999
From: Johnnie5 at rose.net (John Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:33:48 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>

From: "John Johnson" <Johnnie5 at rose.net>

Problems with 10 million gallon pig farm dumps into North Carolina and
municipal dumps into rivers, oceans and lakes are the problem.  Boats are
just legislative focal points for "do something" do gooders who think its
"everybody else" going to the bathroom, but not me!  How many boats and
holding tanks would it take to make up a 10 million gallon spill?
_______________________________________________
dreams can come true at <http://home.rose.net/~johnnie5>


> Certainly the need to conserve water and to know how much or little one
> can get away with in the flush is a learning curve but I stand by the
> previous statement on no discharge.
>
> The problem lies with the excess nutrients in treated or untreated
> sewage which in the Great Lakes helps to encourage eutriphication which
> results in algae blooms and foul waters.   The problem is not dissimilar
> to the Chesapeake experience.
>
> Certainly boats do not account for all of it, or even a significant
> amount, but it is an incremental process, the reduction of pollution.
> Besides, 10 or so boats in a smaller anchorage can have a real impact.



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 936272028.0

From JRogers at scelectric.ca  Thu Sep  2 04:52:40 1999
From: JRogers at scelectric.ca (Jim Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:52:40 -0400 
Subject: [alberg30] Carbon In Exhaust
Message-ID: <9018B5BE3241D311872C00C04F52A8E7044F0E@CLIFF>

Attached is part of a Great Lakes Ablerg 30 Association newsletter from the
late 1960s which may help.



 <<carbon.tif>> 



Jim Rogers
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From Mpete53 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 06:37:39 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:37:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] holding tank photo
Message-ID: <b436ff01.24ffd7a3@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

I never measured the useable volume but as I recall it calculates out to 
about 12 gal.

Mark

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 936279459.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Thu Sep  2 06:40:31 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CDD0B3.BD86DBF9@idirect.com> from "sunstone" at Sep 1,
	99 09:19:47 pm
Message-ID: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> sunstone said:
> 
> Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> allow raw discharge.   

John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is 
dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
and shrubs organically.

I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?

> Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> wash room facilities, apply the same principle.

In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available 
for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce 
the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
 
> The world will definitely be a better place for it.

I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
for reasons that have little to do with boats.

Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
(http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.

You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
(3):

   After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
   promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
   the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
   the waters within such State require greater environmental
   protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
   from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
   such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
   the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
   safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
   vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
   prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
   Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
   the date of such application.

Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.

Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of 
the armed services.

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936279631.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 07:55:13 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, everyone!

George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?

It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.

Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
Visiting sailors find that most appealing.

But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
are.

Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369


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 936284113.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Thu Sep  2 08:56:54 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
In-Reply-To: <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

Marianne,

I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior.  In fact I
have a two pumps on the galley sink and prefer to use the one right out of
the lake for drinking water except when I am in a small harbor.  It is also
much colder than water out of the tank.

I trust Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
into the lake.

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

At 10:55 AM 09/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
>It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
>Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
>Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>


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 936287814.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Thu Sep  2 10:34:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:34:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lake Superior
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
	<4.2.0.58.19990902115154.00a7f730@pop.mail.nmu.edu>
Message-ID: <37CEB51D.E6F91FE4@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Brian!
I don't know about the Soo and Thunder Bay but I'd be willing to bet they have
their act together and keep the water clean.  Certainly here we place a premium
on keeping the water pristine--it's too important!

Interested to know where and for how long you have cruised Superior.

My grandfather went to Otter Head from Lake Simcoe in a 13' boat and 3.5
Johnson motor in 1929.  The next year he got a 30-foot cruiser and went there
every summer--quite an undertaking when he had to arrange in the winter to have
fuel delivered to the points where rail and lakeshore converged--no marinas.  I
have his Great Lakes Pilot, with all his notations.

I have not ventured forth yet, but hope to duplicate some of his voyages.  All
experience and advice welcome!

Marianne
Windward #369


Brian Zinser wrote:

> I too, enjoy being able to drink right out of Lake Superior. .. trust Thunder
> Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. are not pumping directly
> into the lake.
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936293661.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Thu Sep  2 11:25:11 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:25:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <37CEC0DB.BEA84DA8@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses and
sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there using
one? 

Regards- Greg

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936296711.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  2 13:35:42 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net>
Message-ID: <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

George, et al,
About 9 years ago our club bought a pumpout system for about $8000 CDN
installed including a large holding tank which is periodically emptied
by a "honey wagon".    The pumpout is used without charge to our club
members and last year we incurred about $600 in expenses rebuilding the
pump, the first expense since its installation.

We have no record as to how many boats use it each year, or how many
times, but it certainly is in the high (no pun intended) hundreds if not
more and certainly in the thousands over its first 9 years.   Our club
has a membership of 220.

The point is that it is not that expensive and up here the going
commercial pumpout ranges from $10-$15 CDN, clearly such fees will
guarantee even the most inept business person a profit.
 
Marianne King-Wilson is right when she reports the scandalous sewage
conditions at Montreal and Vancouver, but that is not to excuse us from
doing our bit as boaters.   Granted it is a small bit.

In the Great Lakes on the Canadian side you must have a holding tank and
Y valves will earn you a fine of $5000 first offence.   The system must
be physically disconnected from a through hull discharge port and a Y
valve is not considered "disconnected."

I don't know what US policy is in the GL area but I have personally
witnessed "accidental" discharges in our waters and I do not find it
amusing, particularly when it happens in an anchorage.   Therefore, the
banning of direct connections to overboard discharge through hulls makes
sense as it eliminates accidental discharge through a Y valve. 

As for grey water from sinks and dishes, well when the Ontario
Provincial Government attempted to legislate that one an even us
didactic "knee jerk" folk balked on that, particularly after reading the
"study."  They withdrew it.

But black water ... well 'nuf said.

I agree with you on lawns, agricultural run off, municipal
improprieties, industrial, etcetera but as your teachers doubtless told
you as they did me "just because Billy did it doesn't mean you can...
and the old two wrongs don't make ...."

Take care and fair winds,

John



George Dinwiddie wrote:
> 
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
> 
> > sunstone said:
> >
> > Gee we've had holding tank, no discharge laws for years, seems perfectly
> > reasonable to me, in fact I can't believe that any place on earth would
> > allow raw discharge.
> 
> John, it's not raw discharge that we're talking about, though the
> county doesn't mind dumping thousands of gallons of that into a small
> creek if they have problems with a pumping station.  The question is
> dumping small amounts of treated sewage.  Granted, this does add
> nitrogen to the water, but probably not as much as fertilizing your
> lawn.  So, I don't fertilize the lawn, prefering to grow my grass
> and shrubs organically.
> 
> I guess that both sides of the Great Lakes are no-discharge areas, is
> that not so?  What about Canadian ocean waters?
> 
> > Get after your legislators to require all marinas and yacht clubs to
> > have pump out facilities, I mean you can't operate a restaurant without
> > wash room facilities, apply the same principle.
> 
> In Maryland, they've made a big push for more pumpouts, requiring them
> for marinas beyond a certain size and also making grants available
> for putting them in.  This has helped the situation such that the
> state felt they could duplicate federal laws.  They now can enforce
> the regulations with the Natural Resources Police, giving an
> economic benefit to the state and resulting in more enforcement.
> Unfortunately, many of the new pumpout stations are at shallow
> water locations, not of use to most sailboats.  Also, these stations
> are not much use to those of us who don't keep our boats in a marina.
> 
> > The world will definitely be a better place for it.
> 
> I'm all for making the world a better place.  I have a Mansfield
> system and I try to use it responsibly.  I live on the water and
> sail on the water and I want it to be clean.  It's not clean, but
> for reasons that have little to do with boats.
> 
> Back to the question of no-discharge zones, I just took a look at
> the EPA web site and couldn't find a list.  They have a page
> (http://www.epa.gov/owowwtr1/oceans/vesseldischarge/index.html)
> that lists states with no discharge zones as of Feb 1998, and a
> search turned up a few press releases related to areas of New
> York and New Jersey.  I couldn't find any list of current no
> discharge zones, however.  I've emailed an inquiry.
> 
> You can find the US law on Marine Sanitation Devices at
> Title 33, chapter 26, subchapter III, Sec. 1322
> (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/1322.html).  The
> no-discharge stuff is in subsection (f), particularly paragraph
> (3):
> 
>    After the effective date of the initial standards and regulations
>    promulgated under this section, if any State determines that
>    the protection and enhancement of the quality of some or all of
>    the waters within such State require greater environmental
>    protection, such State may completely prohibit the discharge
>    from all vessels of any sewage, whether treated or not, into
>    such waters, except that no such prohibition shall apply until
>    the Administrator determines that adequate facilities for the
>    safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all
>    vessels are reasonably available for such water to which such
>    prohibition would apply. Upon application of the State, the
>    Administrator shall make such determination within 90 days of
>    the date of such application.
> 
> Note that none of this talks about graywater, which is defined at
> the beginning of the subchapter.  That's a different topic and I
> don't know what is the legal basis of such restrictions.
> 
> Also, the law provides for exempting procedures for vessels of
> the armed services.
> 
> --
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>   The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>   sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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 936304542.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep  2 14:10:45 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:10:45 -0700 
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D420@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

My little Autohelm tiller-mounted autopilot operates on an internal flux
gate compass, and it doesn't steer any worse than I do.  I've never used the
stand-alone units though, I'm curious about them too.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121
> ----------
> From: 	greg vandenberg[SMTP:fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:25 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Flux Gate
> 
> From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>
> 
> I have a question for anyone with some knowledge about flux gate compasses
> and
> sailboats... Is it a good match up on a 30 footer? Is anyone out there
> using
> one? 
> 
> Regards- Greg
> 
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 936306645.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep  2 10:28:35 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:28:35 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CE8FD1.BCF03CC6@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37CEB3C1.943CFFC5@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Marianne,

My wife and I love your sailing waters...years ago we were on an expedition to
find Killarney Provincial Park and couldn't make it by dark so we spent a week at
Killbear near Parry Sound where we met sailor/artists Bert and Elena Weir...Your
music festival is wonderful as are the Group of Seven scenery!!! You just have to
watch the old keel clearance in many areas...PreCambrian granite is hard on
bottoms...

Scott

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:

> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
>
> Hi, everyone!
>
> George Dinwiddie wrote:  What about Canadian ocean waters?
>
> It's Canada's abiding shame that at least two major cities, Victoria, and
> Montreal, are still, to the best of my knowledge, pumping sewage into the
> Pacific and the Atlantic respectively.
>
> Where I live, on Parry Sound of Georgian Bay, in the 30,000 Islands, we can
> still reach down from the boat and drink the water right out of the Sound.
> Visiting sailors find that most appealing.
>
> But we all have a responsibility to keep it that way, and I'm saddened that
> two Canadian cities apparently have not discovered how small our oceans really
> are.
>
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
>
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 936293315.0

From A30240 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 19:00:15 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:00:15 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Flux Gate
Message-ID: <5706225.250085af@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

A thught.  Reguardless of size, would still have a good magnetic compass.  
The flux gate needs to have elecricity.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 936324015.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:25:11 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:11 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <c1fc0fcc.2500b5b7@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I tried to figure that out once for lk St Clair, because sometimes they dump 
sewer warer into the storm drains and 10 million goes into the lake here.  
perhaps a thousand years, and Michigan has more boats than anybody, about a 
million, and a lot of them are on the lake here    But thats the GOVERMENT 
and they do what they want.  Russ

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 936336311.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:37:53 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:37:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <9f63d654.2500b8b1@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

George, you're right, we need to keep it as clean as we can.  Up in lk Huron, 
out from shore, we drink and cook with lake water.  Canada insists all boats 
have holding tanks.  They even outlawed portable units because they could be 
dumped in the lake.  Russ  Pfeiffer

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 936337073.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 22:47:47 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:47:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <292ff0cf.2500bb03@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Right on, John
Russ

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 936337667.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep  3 07:56:03 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:56:03 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
References: <9f5cc52e.24ff5d74@aol.com> <37CE13BA.80F96E92@idirect.com>
	<002201bef537$06615100$750311ac@wonderful>
Message-ID: <37CFE182.C5242766@crosslink.net>

To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not to
soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a mile
from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not pump
solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where there
is no natural flushing.

    BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats pump
even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab populations
drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
"legal") is not hurting the environment.

    The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
boats? Get serious.

    It is, of course, politically correct.....

    I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of all
the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is an
area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population as
on the Bay.

    There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas like
Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite proper.

    I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington DC
area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on days
of high air pollution.

    I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
things that matter.

    If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot more
places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 gallon
plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....

    Sorry for the explosion, guys.

                                        - Gordon White, A-275
-------------- next part --------------
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From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 13:39:01 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:39:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Lectrasan MSD
Message-ID: <3ca10415.25018be5@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Thank you, Gordon. A very sensible and balanced contribution. We must make an 
effort to learn and disseminate fact-based information about how Nature 
purifies itself and its capacity for doing so. It is the only way to bring 
the "politically corrrect", who are operating in a miasma of ignorance and 
rear, to their senses.
Paul Cicchetti
Ashwagh #23

In a message dated 9/3/99 10:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gewhite at crosslink.net writes:

> To add my 2 cents to the toilet question - my ethic for years has been not 
to
>  soil our own nest. I recall in the 1940s when the ocean front cottages in
>  Maine had sewer pipes that ran out into the sea about 100 feet - half a 
mile
>  from bathing beaches - and I knew that was bad. We certainly should not 
pump
>  solids into restricted areas like small lakes, marinas and harbors where 
> there
>  is no natural flushing.
>  
>      BUT - the sea is a big place. There is no way the recreational boats 
> pump
>  even a fraction of the waste the natural fish, seal, bird and crab 
> populations
>  drop, even in Chesapeake Bay. In my mind, pumping in mid-Bay, (even if not
>  "legal") is not hurting the environment.
>  
>      The runoff from city storm sewers let alone the sanitary sewers/sewage
>  plant effluent of course needs to be cleaned up, but even a few thousand
>  boats? Get serious.
>  
>      It is, of course, politically correct.....
>  
>      I note that in Western Canada (unlike Eastern Canada) no one, least of 
> all
>  the officials, makes any pretext that yacht pumping is a problem. I spent a
>  week in the Straits of Georgia inside Vancouver Island last month. This is 
> an
>  area quite analogous to Chesapeake Bay in size. There are NO rules there
>  against pumping overboard, even though there is as vast a boat population 
as
>  on the Bay.
>  
>      There are the beginnings of rules against pumping in enclosed areas 
like
>  Gorge Harbor and other marinas and small coves, which I feel is quite 
proper.
> 
>  
>      I note that politically correct envirionmental rules in the Washington 
> DC
>  area have reached the "don't breathe out" point. I got a flier here in
>  Alexandria suggesting a voluntary restriction on people going outside on 
> days
>  of high air pollution.
>  
>      I was an enthusiastic environmentalist for years, and still am, but for
>  things that matter.
>  
>      If the environmental thought police really cared there would be a lot 
> more
>  places for us to pump out. There is not one where I keep my boat on the
>  Piankatank River within at least 25 miles. So for now I pump into a 5 
gallon
>  plastic jerry can I carry up to the toilet when I get home. Otherwise.....
>  
>      Sorry for the explosion, guys.
>  
>                                          - Gordon White, A-275

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 936391141.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Sat Sep  4 06:21:31 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon E. White)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] pumpouts
References: <199909021340.JAA15254@min.net> <37CEDF9D.1322B635@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D11CDB.D4603D73@crosslink.net>

From: "Gordon E. White" <gewhite at crosslink.net>


   I have a neighbor who runs a marina, unfortunately on the Rappahannock River,
three miles by road but 25 by water from me. He installed a pumpout station,
with a little state money (not enough to cover but about half the cost) and
charges $5 US per pump. It costs him $4 US to dispose of the average pumpout's
sewage. It has to be pumped from his tank into a honey wagon and hauled away,
plus he has to pay for the operator(s), the electricity, maintenance, etc. So in
the end he loses money on the thing, plus has the headaches it involves. He
writes it off as the cost of doing business, but it is hardly a money-maker. I
think he is restricted to what he can charge by the rules under which he got the
subsidy payment.
    It is obviously an imperfect solution...
                                    - Gordon White A-275


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 936451291.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Wed Sep  1 00:28:40 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:28:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] motor mounts
Message-ID: <01BEF430.244BAF60.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Thank you all for your answers to my question about motor mounts. It 
seemsthat my boat (454) never did have  rubber inserts at the motor mounts. 
 Allignment could be a problem, but it is more likely a new propeller shaft 
which was stressed in one direction for a long period of time.  Thanks 
again....Joe

-----Original Message-----
From:	greg vandenberg
Sent:	Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:59 AM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] motor mounts

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Have you checked for any loose or (broken) mounting bolts? Is it
possible that there is STILL an alignment problem?

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 936170920.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 00:19:33 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:19:33 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
Message-ID: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

George & others,

I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
is the latter !

Tom S
A-30  #412
InCahoots


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 936861573.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Thu Sep  9 07:33:36 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:33:36 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
Message-ID: <37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Tom
The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
their lectrascams ;)
I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
don't get one too.
John

Tom Sutherland wrote:
> 
> From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> 
> George & others,
> 
> I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> is the latter !
> 
> Tom S
> A-30  #412
> InCahoots
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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 936887616.0

From tomsu at uky.campuscw.net  Thu Sep  9 02:31:26 1999
From: tomsu at uky.campuscw.net (Tom Sutherland)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:26 +0100
Subject: [alberg30] anybody home ?
References: <37D75F4F.92ACC81B@uky.campuscw.net>
	<37D7C540.8F6065CB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <37D77E2D.4BC04E16@uky.campuscw.net>

From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>

John,

Thanks ! .... and I might add that I did get my own message but still wasn't
sure until I received yours. It is a relief to know all is well ...

Tom S
A30  #412


sunstone wrote:

> From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
>
> Tom
> The list is working fine, everyone is sailing, and hopefully replacing
> their lectrascams ;)
> I asked the same question when the list when quiet in the winter and was
> rudely chastised by one member for unnecessary email chatter, I hope you
> don't get one too.
> John
>
> Tom Sutherland wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Sutherland <tomsu at uky.campuscw.net>
> >
> > George & others,
> >
> > I don't believe I've received a post on this A-30 list since Sunday.  Is
> > there a problem with the list or is everybody just out sailing ?
> > As this is my sole source for information on the Alberg I sure hope it
> > is the latter !
> >
> > Tom S
> > A-30  #412
> > InCahoots
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 936869486.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Fri Sep 10 17:24:41 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:41 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.

Who has teak in stock like that?

Thanks in advance;

Joe #499
One Less Traveled

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 937009481.0

From jsss at net1plus.com  Fri Sep 10 18:37:40 1999
From: jsss at net1plus.com (Joyce Sousa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37D9B264.65123D@net1plus.com>

From: Joyce Sousa <jsss at net1plus.com>

Joe,

If you run into a bind and cannot find teak in the area. Boultner Plywood in
Somerville, MA has a great selection of teak in stock and will ship worldwide.
I purchased the Teak for Carina Vela from them. If you need the phone number
send me an e-mail.

Stephen Sousa
#114
Carina Vela

Joe Tokarz wrote:

> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
> Who has teak in stock like that?
>
> Thanks in advance;
>
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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 937013860.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 10 22:33:04 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:33:04 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990910223304.012d7ec4@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Joe... F. Scott Jay in Millersville (Severna Park) has it. Be prepared to
sacrifice your first ( and maybe second) born.

Cheers,
Bob kirk
Isobar #181


At 07:24 PM 10-09-99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled


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 937027984.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
In-Reply-To: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <199909102236200570.001E2C1F@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I buy my teak at Craftwoods, in Timonium just north of Baltimore. It's $21 a board foot. They usually have up to 8/4 which is about 2" thick. Haven't seen any 16/4 (4") in anything but Walnut or Cherry.
>
>Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
>I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
>about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
>maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
>epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
>
>Who has teak in stock like that?
>
>Thanks in advance;
>
>Joe #499
>One Less Traveled
>
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 937017380.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 12 20:57:23 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 13 Sep 1999 03:57:23 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <937195043.9087@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

    My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?




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 937195043.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 21:19:39 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:19:39 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <d43fb889.250dd55b@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, sounds like a valve problem only.  Did it happen suddenly? or over time?
 You might have a burned valve seat, or valve, most likely an exhaust.  One 
of the things to watch out for when you lean the engine out.  Have you been 
useing "Valve Tec" or something like that to replace the lead?
Any way, if the rest of the engine is ok, ( and you did get home)  you can do 
a valve job, but I think if you replace any seats it will have to come out 
and go to a machine shop.  Have a good mechanic take a look at it before you 
do anything drastic.
Russ Pfeiffer, Ca Va

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 937196379.0

From parks24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 13 07:45:20 1999
From: parks24 at hotmail.com (Thomas Parks)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:20 PDT
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
Message-ID: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Parks" <parks24 at hotmail.com>

Joe,
  When I was looking for teak for the new toe rails for "Tradewinds" I did a 
net search and found a company that was a wholesaler you could buy from. I 
believe they were in one of the Carolina's and would ship to you, can't 
remember the name though. I believe I used teak as the search word and went 
from there. Make sure you are sitting down when you get a price!!
Good Luck,
Tom Parks
"Tradewinds" #48

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 937233920.0

From bzinser at nmu.edu  Mon Sep 13 07:56:11 1999
From: bzinser at nmu.edu (Brian Zinser)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:56:11 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990913105243.00990f00@pop.mail.nmu.edu>

From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>

I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
measurement?

Brian Zinser
Manana #134

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 937234571.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 08:17:27 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:17:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD1587.9ABE3D2F@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leaved alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937235847.0

From bminder at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 13 09:55:31 1999
From: bminder at mediaone.net (B. Minder)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] (no subject)
Message-ID: <37DD2C83.EF8B61@mediaone.net>

From: "B. Minder" <bminder at mediaone.net>

leave alberg30 at onelist.com

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 937241731.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 13 09:56:59 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:56:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
In-Reply-To: <937195043.9087@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 13,
	99 03:57:23 am
Message-ID: <199909131656.MAA27664@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! 
> For details and to order, go to: 
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937241819.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 11:22:51 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:22:51 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <f4217584.250e9afb@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Tom,
Saw your note on teak aquistion re: toe rail replacement, and it is the toe 
rail job that I have questions about.  When we get to it, our toe rail will 
be replaced, as it is broken and checked in several places.  Hull #48 has the 
same rail as our 255, so your knowledge will be directly transferable to our 
boat.
Did you do the job yourself?
How did you match the cambers of the original pieces?
Any difficult parts you found good techniques to simplify?

This job scares me, and so any advice you can offer will be appreciated.  
Regardless, it will be a while before we tackle it.

Thx,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937246971.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 13 12:50:19 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DD5578.46673048@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Joe... Teak around here (west michigan) is $15/board foot. Go for it! It will
look GREAT!
greg

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 937252219.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Mon Sep 13 21:13:47 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:13:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

Dear Tom / Lee,
     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
that job much longer. 
    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
problem sooner or later.
paul.
Ashwagh #23

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 937282427.0

From mundo at visi.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:46 1999
From: mundo at visi.net (Michael Stephano)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:56:46 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001901befea8$3ac36f80$4be6f6ce@stephano>

From: "Michael Stephano" <mundo at visi.net>

I know some one that has done this job (not on an Alberg). He removed the
rail in equal sections and made the replacement pieces using the original as
templates. I don't know the condition of your toe rail but it may be easier
to work with what you have and repair the bad areas. I have recently
resurfaced the coamings on my boat ( That I thought should be replaced until
the same friend bought me to my senses) by removing them and sanding away
the high grain. Sealing them with epoxy and varnish before putting them back
on. The screw holes will need to be deepened to accommodate new bungs.
Good luck
Michael Stephano
Hopkins & Bro. General Store and the
Eastern Shore Steamboat Co. Restaurant
http://members.visi.net/~mundo/

----- Original Message -----
From: <RABBIT649 at aol.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> that job much longer.
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull
(I
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist:  your connection to people who share your interests.
>
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>


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 937310206.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 06:51:45 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> from "RABBIT649@aol.com" at Sep 14,
	99 00:13:47 am
Message-ID: <199909141351.JAA10253@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Paul,

Brude Rankin has done these toe-rails, and done a beautiful job.  I'd
suggest practicing with pine before trying to cut the teak.  Or, maybe
better, hire someone to do it.  That's what I'd do.  I'm learning
to recognize my limitations.

 - George

> RABBIT649 at aol.com said:
> 
> Dear Tom / Lee,
>      I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
> that job much longer. 
>     And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
> dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
> don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
> (ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
> you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
> of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
> know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>     There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
> technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
> Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>     Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
> problem sooner or later.
> paul.
> Ashwagh #23

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937317105.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Tue Sep 14 07:55:52 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:55:52 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Re: about Almost nothing
References: <19990913144520.91672.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <37DE61F5.A8F8D0F2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Hi Tom... Whats Sup? I'm getting ready to take my end of the summer cruise.
Want to go sailing for a couple of days?

more later- Greg

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 937320952.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 14 08:01:39 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37DE6353.27FA424B@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Saw some at Bacon's on Monday.
John

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
> ONElist now has T-SHIRTS!
> For details and to order, go to:
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt1 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 937321299.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Tue Sep 14 18:28:58 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck
Message-ID: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
Bill De Witt
Simple Gifts #249
Astoria Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: [alberg30] Height from keel to top of cabin trunck


>From: Brian Zinser <bzinser at nmu.edu>
>
>I'm looking at storage options and need to know the height from bottom of
>keel to highest point on cabin trunk.  My best guess without going to the
>marina is that it is between 9 and 10 feet.  Does anybody know this
>measurement?
>
>Brian Zinser
>Manana #134
>
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 937358938.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 14 18:42:43 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
In-Reply-To: <001201beff19$c10a5e20$eb8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 14, 99 06:28:58 pm
Message-ID: <199909150142.VAA26182@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can measure
> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to the
> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint of
> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..

Bill

The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if 
they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
one should be a hex bolt.

You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.

Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
to do that this time.

 - George

-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937359763.0

From apk2 at home.com  Tue Sep 14 20:20:03 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:20:03 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time and about $300 in materials.

I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about 30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand, (hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group buy up?

Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for $20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
Cheers 
Alan 
Andante #152
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:

>From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
>
>Dear Tom / Lee,
>     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't avoid 
>that job much longer. 
>    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3 
>dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the hull (I 
>don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the bow 
>(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height as 
>you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a lot 
>of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't 
>know what you're doing and I certainly don't. 
>    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe a 
>technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody. 
>Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats" course?
>    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this 
>problem sooner or later.
>paul.
>Ashwagh #23
>
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>
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------




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forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons!
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937365603.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Wed Sep 15 16:41:02 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:02 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe
Message-ID: <001001beffd3$d43862c0$2b8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

From: "Bill DeWitt" <hiplt at pacifier.com>

Roger that! Makes sense. Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249
-----Original Message-----
From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
To: alberg30 at onelist.com <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: [alberg30] rudder shoe


>From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>
>
>> Bill DeWitt said:
>>
>> As I have (our just acquired) 'Simple Gifts' #249 in the yard I can
measure
>> that height tomorrow and let you know. Does anyone know what's to be done
>> with beheaded fasteners that afix the shoe at the base of the rudder to
the
>> keel? On each lateral edge they are headless within the countersunk
>> aperture. The aft one appears to be neither a screw or bolt??  The joint
of
>> the shoe  to the keel shows a slight hairline fissure...help...thanks..
>
>Bill
>
>The ones on the sides should be flat-head slotted screws.  Even if
>they're intact, I'd bet the slots are filled with paint.  The aft
>one should be a hex bolt.
>
>You can probably cut a new slot in the machine screws, if you have
>to.  If not, you could drill them out (the minimum amount necessary)
>and, after pulling the shoe, grab the stub with vice-grips to remove
>them.  The same will work on the aft shoe.
>
>Use bronze bolts when you put them back in.  Stainless will get
>crevice corrosion there.  Bruce Rankin recommends bedding with 3M
>5200.  You can always use a propane torch to heat the shoe and
>soften the caulk when you need to remove it.  In fact, you might need
>to do that this time.
>
> - George
>
>--
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
>  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
>  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>



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 937438862.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Wed Sep 15 18:46:56 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:46:56 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

I'll try to be brief.Sunday I took my boat out for just a couple of
hours,planned on sailing up bayou Lafourche to sharpen my tacking
skills.There were two lines of thunder storms in the distance and I was
between them.This bayou is flanked by marsh grasses and tree lines,the
wind was 12-15 app.Unable to see the wind coming had I been in open
waters,I was suddenly struck broad side while close hauled.I was sailing
with head sail and main.My boat heeled over to port so much I had water
on deck mid way from toe rail to cabin.It was all I could do to stay in
the cockpit.I managed to push the tiller hard over to port and turned it
into the wind,but before I could do anything she came around to
stbd.and  put the deck under water again.Well I was able to finally
release the main sheet let the boom swing out,by this time I had it on
bottom headed into the wind and lowered the sails.Pretty hairy for about
15 seconds,I just knew it was going over.Has any alberg  owner had an
experience like this?Sailing friend of mine says wind will spill out of
sails before the boat turns over,well I think my boat was heeled as much
as I cared to see it.I wasn't worried for myself,I was alone and was
worried about my boat.I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind
alone,or did I put my boat through a testing experience?I wonder how
many many degrees of angle I achieved,not that I had time to check it
out.Ha!Ha!Hey experts out there enlighten me.

Dick Fillinich  "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937446416.0

From addvalue at zeuter.com  Wed Sep 15 19:07:21 1999
From: addvalue at zeuter.com (Marianne King-Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:07:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>

From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>

Hi, Dick!
We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
completely secure and confident.
I look forward to hearing more stories.
Marianne King-Wilson
Windward #369




Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
Galliano,La.



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937447641.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 15 20:39:02 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:39:02 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com> <37E050D8.6D6C0BA3@zeuter.com>
Message-ID: <37E06656.48CA7500@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh, why not.

It was the 3rd day of a light air race in which the wind had only
started to build a few hours earlier, it had been hazy, hot and wearing.

In the inaugural Fujinon 300 (N. Mile) Double Handed Race on Lake
Ontario in 1990 June and I aboard our A-30 Wind Rose KC-544 along with
the rest of the fleet of 56 boats were hit with a line squall measured
in excess of 85 Knots for about 20 minutes.   We were 3 days  into the
race off 30 Mile Point beating in 15 -18 apparent on a Port tack when
out of the fog or haze, or what ever, a line squall came across the
lake, tacked us and pinned us hove to on Stb with the mast less than 6'
from the water.  I had been sleeping off watch on the bridge deck.

We lay on our side with the cockpit locker awash as the 1 meter waves
were pounded into a froth as in a washing machine and we were hit by
searing horizontal rain which made it impossible to turn one's face to
windward.

We were enclosed in a howling storm with visibility about 1 boat length
in any direction unable to hear each other only inches away.

There was lightening all around and you could smell the ozone from the
discharges, as we struggled to bring the sails down.   It is a funny
(ha) thing to walk on your cabin side realizing you are the tallest
object on the boat with lightening going off like a gattling gun. We
where so far over that the anemometer read 0, another boat took the wind
reading.

The main fell into the lazy jacks easily but the hanked on genoa would
not come down due to the wind pressure.  In hind sight I should have
turned the boat down wind after the main was down to let the wind drive
the Genoa down.  We felt exhausted when it dissipated and took about 20
minutes more to make sail again feeling totally pummelled. 

We then came up to 50o of heel with the sails down under bare poles.

As the haze lifted momentarily we could see we where driving ashore on
30 Mile Point and so tacked back to port flying back into the haze on
our beam.  Not many modern boats would have answered their helm in those
conditions and at that angle of heel.

The squall was over in 20 minutes, dismasted the other A-30 we were
racing, broke 3 booms, shredded several sails and killed the crew of
another boat in our division 70 miles a stern of us.   We did not find
out about the loss of life until several days later as they sunk without
warning or Mayday.

We suffered no damage, took on no water as I had put new seals on the
hatches and was ever so thankful we had changed the upper chainplate
bolts to 3/8" shanked hex heads.  If you haven't done this chainplate
bolt enhancement, let this be a reminder to do so.    

We finished 5 out of 56 on corrected time and won our division, the next
year we won our division and placed 22 out of 89.   Fujinon dropped the
sponsorship, presumably due to the negative press over the fatalities,
after the second year.

It is now called the Lake Ontario 300, Oakville to Toronto to Niagara to
Main Duck Island to Niagara to Toronto to Port Credit.

As for the boat, in that immortal quip of Carl Alberg "it seems to have
worked out all right."

John Birch

Marianne King-Wilson wrote:
> 
> From: Marianne King-Wilson <addvalue at zeuter.com>
> 
> Hi, Dick!
> We've had a couple of white squall experiences in Georgian Bay; very hairy.
> We asked our late friend Bill Beatty (Kaila #266), whose enthusiasm for the
> A-30 had led to our purchase,  what the maximum heel was, and he said,
> calmly,  "90 degrees".  He had two knockdowns on the Atlantic, with his wife
> and 2-year-old son and 2-month-old daughter aboard.   I feel certain that
> more than wind alone was responsible for the knockdown, of course.  The
> beauty of the Alberg was that she righted herself immediately and he felt
> completely secure and confident.
> I look forward to hearing more stories.
> Marianne King-Wilson
> Windward #369
> 
> Dick Filinich wrote:I just wonder if an a 30 can be rolled by wind alone,or
> did I put my boat through a testing experience? "High Spirits"#191
> Galliano,La.
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453142.0

From cjk at tir.com  Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:43:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
References: <37E04C10.26AD@mobiletel.com>
Message-ID: <001b01befff5$9b942400$e88828d8@default>

From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>

>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
(Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
(and Yves) survived.

As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
"inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9

As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.

If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa  #445


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937453393.0

From jopalmer at classicsailboat.com  Thu Sep 16 06:26:22 1999
From: jopalmer at classicsailboat.com (Joseph Palmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:26:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <199909161432.KAA14092@users.qual.net>

From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>

 The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and it
compares beam with displacement.
The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement in
cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
or less.
Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
You can find them at
http://www.goodoldboat.com
--
Joseph Palmer
Classic Sailboat
Customer Service
1800-486-7245
jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
http://www.classicsailboat.com/

----------
>From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
>Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
>

> From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
>
>>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in an
> Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could cause a
> knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.  From
> what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally result
> from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one knock
> down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the boat
> (and Yves) survived.
>
> As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of boats
> capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research came a
> number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a boat's
> "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or all
> the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit volume,
> displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less had
> the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from a
> roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
>
> As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat would
> achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would suspect
> that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e. BOC
> boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
>
> If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
>
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa  #445
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937488382.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 16 08:53:08 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:53:08 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D430@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Dan Spurr provided a list of Capsize Screening Ratios for a variety of boats
in his book, "Spurr's Boatbook, Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat".  There at
the bottom of the scale, with the lowest ratio of all the boats listed, is
the wonderful, lovable A-30!  Fear not friends, it'll take more than a punch
in the gut from Aeolus to roll an Alberg.

Rick Leach
Sugar Magnolia, #121

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph Palmer[SMTP:jopalmer at classicsailboat.com]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com; Tartan Owners
> Subject: 	Re: [alberg30] White Squall 
> 
> From: "Joseph Palmer" <jopalmer at classicsailboat.com>
> 
>  The Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine a
> boats blue water capabilities. Its called the Capsize Screening Ratio and
> it
> compares beam with displacement.
> The formula is the max beam divided by the cubed root of the displacement
> in
> cubic feet. The displacement in cubic feet for a boat can be found by
> dividing the dispalcement in pounds by 64.
> A boat is considered blue water acceptable if its calculated number is 2.0
> or less.
> Formulas like this and many others were featured in an artical written by
> Ted Brewer in the August issue of Good Old Boat.
> You can find them at
> http://www.goodoldboat.com
> --
> Joseph Palmer
> Classic Sailboat
> Customer Service
> 1800-486-7245
> jopalmer at classicsailboat.com
> http://www.classicsailboat.com/
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
> >Subject: Re: [alberg30] White Squall
> >Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999, 11:43 PM
> >
> 
> > From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> >
> >>From my experience, you probably had a "heeling experience" of around 55
> > degrees.  Generally speaking, I don't believe wind alone will result in
> an
> > Alberg doing a 360 degree roll. However high winds and squalls could
> cause a
> > knock down of 75-90 degrees, particularly in a broach under spinnaker.
> From
> > what I have read on heavy weather sailing roll-overs are generally
> result
> > from a combination of high winds and big waves.  Yves Gelinas, who
> > single-handed an A 30 around the world in 1985-1986 experienced one
> knock
> > down of 90 degrees+ and one of 360 degrees, both in the South Pacific
> > (Roaring 40s).  The roll-over resulted in being dismasted, however the
> boat
> > (and Yves) survived.
> >
> > As a result of the 1978 Fastnet Race, where a significant number of
> boats
> > capsized/sank  and 13 or so lives were lost, considerable research was
> > directed at deterring what design factors impacted a yacht's ability to
> > recover from sever knock downs and roll overs.  Out of this research
> came a
> > number of findings including a formula/calculation for determining a
> boat's
> > "inverse stability co-efficient."  While I can't remember the formula or
> all
> > the factors impacting the calculation (beam/length ratio, cockpit
> volume,
> > displacement/length ratio, etc.), boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> had
> > the ability to avoid achieving inverse stability and safely recover from
> a
> > roll over.  The rule of thumb is boats with a co-efficient of 2 or less
> > should be consider, all other factors being equal, blue water capable.
> > Albergs 30 have an inverse stability co-efficient of around 1.9
> >
> > As the co-efficient rose above 2, it became more likely that the boat
> would
> > achieve "inverse stability" (i.e. the ability to remain up-side down ).
> > Generally narrow beamed boats had lower co-efficients than broad beamed
> > boats, with catamarans and trimarans having the highest.  I would
> suspect
> > that all these new cutting edge "aircraft carrier" type race boats (i.e.
> BOC
> > boats etc.) have a very high co-efficient.
> >
> > If you want more info on this subject, read Fastnet Force 10.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa  #445
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
> > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
> today!
> >      <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> 
>   New!!  Free E-mail @mail.com, @usa.com, @engineer.com and more!
> Mail.com makes it easy to set up a free, personalized e-mail address
>            that you can access anytime and anywhere.
>                 http://www.onelist.com/ad/mailcom1
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937497188.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 10:55:35 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:35 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Paul,
You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of wood, 
that toe rail on the older boats.
Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
professionaly.
I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components a 
lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider at 
the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces is 
what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
technique to accomplish.
Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in SC, 
and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want her 
launching herself without me!!!
Thx,
Lee 
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937504535.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 11:34:01 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:34:01 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

George,
Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
thousand?
Lee
Stargazer, #255

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 937506841.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Mon Sep  6 15:42:39 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4
Message-ID: <01BEF8B5.ACCDF3A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Check for stuck valves. You can close them by taking out the spark plug and 
using a suitable allen wrench . This is rather common. If you can cloce 
them, put some oil in the cylinder  to lubricate the valve stem.  If all 
works out well, use a good top cylinder lubricant  in the future  to avoid 
the problem..
Joe Fleming    454

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Dinwiddie
Sent:	Monday, September 13, 1999 12:57 PM
To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Looking for Atomic 4

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

You can check with John Featherman (associated with Don Moyer) at
717-432-0601 or a4parts at epix.net.  I've also been talking with a
guy named Tom in Pensacola FL (SATORITOM at aol.com).  These are just
leads, not recommendations.  I hope that your problem is just
something simple.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
>
> From: jack at abs.net
>
>     My Annabelle #453 has lost power in cylinders 1 and 2. I was able to 
putt back to home on the other two. I'll be checking compression to see if 
I can figure problem. If engine is shot,I 'd like to replace it with 
another A-4.Does anyone know of any A-4's for sale?
>
>
>
>
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--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 936657759.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 12:51:22 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:51:22 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall 
Message-ID: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Dick,
Sounds like fun!! Sorry  I missed it!
You only have to worry when the water is pouring into the cockpit, or really, 
into the main hatch.  Sounds like you got hit with a 25-30  knot wall of 
wind-more,and you would have been heeling more. With a 9000 lb. Alberg 30 
under you, wind alone is not going to capasize her. You would need the action 
of big confused waves in addition to wind to turn a semi-knockdown as you 
describe into something realy dangerous, and in the protected water you 
describe, that is not likely.  Wind knockdowns did test your boats individual 
strength, though, Dick, and it sounds like everything- chainplates, 
shrouds,tangs, sails, etc, held, so that is good.
You have to develop some thoughts for immidiate action in these situations.
First and foremost,
-release mainsheet to get the old girl back on her feet
-then, assess if you have room to leeward to manuever, or is there land or 
shallow water or other boats/ships that makes a dangerous situation?
-make an assesment as to whether or not this is a temporary  increase in wind 
that will be over in less than a minute, or will you be dealing with this 
increased wind for longer.
-make a quick assesment-run forward and drop the sails? Or 
let the main luff, and power through with the headsail if the puff looks 
temporary, and you aren't carrying too big a headsail. If the wind is going 
to be persistant, reef quickly.
-keep in mind that flailing sails in the wind are being destroyed.  You want 
to keep beating up of the material to a minimum.
Actualy, this is a big topic, and hard to cover effectively in just an email.
In the future, when you see threatening weather coming, think ahead, and have 
a plan all ready.  I love to singlehand too, so I have been in a similar 
situation often.  Usualy I reef down way ahead of time, so when the weather 
hits, I am ready.  I don't have roller furling on the headsails, so I'll 
change to a smaller headsail ahead of time, then use the headsail to keep the 
boat going while I reef the main.  Of course, if conditions continue to 
worsen, further sail rduction can be done with water flying and the boat 
bucking, if necessary, but it is so much easier and safer to be proactive. 
I've rigged a take-down line for the jib- a line that goes from the head of 
the sail, to a block at the tack, and then  aft. This way, you can release 
the halyard, and pull down the jib, and pull back on the sheet, and the jib 
is secure on the deck, so you can concentrate on other things.
Slab reefing on the main is the way to go.  With practice,it is easy and 
fast, and thus safe.
Of course, dropping both sails and turning on the engine (probably not in 
THAT order) is totaly acceptable, too, for saftey sake.
Youve picked a good boat to learn on-she will take care of you.  I would 
reccomend some reading-Blue Water sailing by Dashew, Heavy Weather Sailing by 
Adlard Coles.  these are intended for voyaging situations, but sift through 
the information for stuff you can use as you learn. It's when the wind gets 
above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
Enjoy, 
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937511482.0

From Shawnwilliam at msn.com  Thu Sep 16 07:03:21 1999
From: Shawnwilliam at msn.com (Shawn Orr)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:03:21 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
Message-ID: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>

From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>

Alan,

can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
leave enough space so that they close all the way.

Any advice?
Shawn Orr
#307
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan P. Kefauver <apk2 at home.com>
To: <alberg30 at onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement


> From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>
>
> I am a woodworker with a full shop. I have just finished building all new
hatches, locker tops, (top loader ice box too) and companion way boards for
Andante. I used birch marine ply for the centers and then framed the edges
with solid teak, Before putting on the edging I laminated teak veneer on the
ply. The edges are screwed and glued and then the holes are bunged. The wood
is sealed with diluted Waterlox Marine and then four full coats with a light
sanding in between. The companion way hatch is laminated 1/8" ply bent over
a form, then vennered and framed. This all took about 18 hours of shop time
and about $300 in materials.
>
> I figure it will take about 18 board feet or more of teak ($400) and about
30 hours of work to do the toe rails.  To do this you will need a sliding
compound mitre saw, a jointer, maybe a planer, a stationary belt sander and
a bandsaw. Teak dulls sawblades about as fast as anything too. Wear long
pants, long sleeve shirts, and a -good- dust mask or respirator. Teak dust
is toxic to the lungs and often irritates the skin. If you do it by hand,
(hand plane, xcut saw, chisels), I can't imagine the amount of labor
required. Even though I can do this, I am seriously considering having
someone else do it. If you get a price from someone maybe we can get a group
buy up?
>
> Friend of mine made his seat locker tops on a Pearson from Scan Teak
Dining Room Table tops he bought at yard sales and flea markets. 4'X8' Teak
veneered ply is about $260 a sheet. Used Scan 3'X5" tables can be had for
$20-$50 a piece, and if old enough the legs are solid teak!
> Cheers
> Alan
> Andante #152
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 9/14/1999 at 12:13 AM RABBIT649 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >From: RABBIT649 at aol.com
> >
> >Dear Tom / Lee,
> >     I was just looking at Ashwagh's toerail and realizing that I can't
avoid
> >that job much longer.
> >    And it is scary. It's cut to match the deck camber, it's bent in 3
> >dimensions to match the sheer line and the plan view curvature of the
hull (I
> >don't know the terminology for that), it flares out as it approaches the
bow
> >(ie, changes its angle in relation to the deck), it increases in height
as
> >you go forward and it's scarfed, mitered and notched. You could waste a
lot
> >of time and teak or go very crazy getting those joints right if you don't
> >know what you're doing and I certainly don't.
> >    There are a couple of reference works I have somewhere that describe
a
> >technique (I'll look), but I'd love to learn this hands on from somebody.
> >Does anyone know of an "Ancillary Joinerwork for Fiberglass Boats"
course?
> >    Let's keep this thread going a while. Everybody's going to have this
> >problem sooner or later.
> >paul.
> >Ashwagh #23
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>
>
>
>
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 937490601.0

From apk2 at home.com  Thu Sep 16 15:45:05 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
In-Reply-To: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
References: <39836120.2512a43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199909161845050900.002095ED@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Yessssss.........

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 3:51 PM FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>
 It's when the wind gets 
>above 15 that this sailing stuff realy becomes fun!!
>Enjoy, 
>Lee
>Stargazer #255
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937521905.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 19:48:43 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:48:43 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] White Squall
Message-ID: <37E1AC0B.2AEC@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

First of all I want to thank all of you who responded personally to my
white squall encounter.An incident like this can fill your head with
doubts,about yourself.I sail alone alot cause all the errors I'm gonna
make,I don't want to put anyone in danger except myself,and when I feel
confident enough on those imperfect days to sail then I'll feel good
about taking guest out for a pleasure trip and not have to come in with
heart attack patients.I don't scare easy,I'm just glad I was alone.Yes
in the future,if a squall approaches for a direct hit or near miss I
willlllllllll take advanced precautiions ahead of time.Now I see why
ya'll believe so much in the a-30,right now it would be hard to go to
another boat if I was in the market for one!!!!!Friends for life.

Dick Fillinich "High Spirits"#191 Galliano,La.

P.S Down here the heat is gone and the wind is brisk,think we'll go
sailing this weekend.

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 937536523.0

From daf at mobiletel.com  Thu Sep 16 20:02:21 1999
From: daf at mobiletel.com (Dick Filinich)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <37E1AF21.17C6@mobiletel.com>

From: Dick Filinich <daf at mobiletel.com>

There is one thing more I need advise on.When I bought the boat it came
equipped with 2 mains,2 genoas,two head sails,and three spinakers.The
smallest head sail is a 9 footer measured at foot I guess this is about
90%.Should I carry anything smaller to be used for high wind conditions.
The main I use now has two sets of reefing points,will practice sailing
under single and double reefed main to get the feel for reduced sail
area. Again thanks Dick

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 937537341.0

From tristan at one.net  Thu Sep 16 17:32:49 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:32:49 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
Message-ID: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Albergians,

Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?

My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
owners and use additional photos for future articles
specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
by no later than late tomorrow night.

Thanks,

Scott and Nan Wallace

sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg


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 937528369.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:42:53 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:42:53 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <bd5b48e7.25134afd@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

I think "the nearest thousand" shows the proper perspective of realism.
Powerful incentive to DIY.
Paul

In a message dated 9/16/99 2:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
>  
>  George,
>  Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
>  thousand?
>  Lee
>  Stargazer, #255

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 937554173.0

From RABBIT649 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 00:40:55 1999
From: RABBIT649 at aol.com (RABBIT649 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:40:55 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <fe3b1bf2.25134a87@aol.com>

From: RABBIT649 at aol.com

In a message dated 9/16/99 1:55:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FINNUS505 at aol.com writes:

> Hi Paul,
>  You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of 
wood,
>  
>  that toe rail on the older boats.
>  Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>  themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>  professionaly.
>  I have a good hand tool collection, but I suspect big, accurate table saws 
>  and electric planers would make the job replacing the toe rail components 
a 
>  lot easier. The scarfs would be difficult enough, but the pieces are wider 
> at 
>  the base than at the top-getting that right for the length of the pieces 
is 
>  what I see as the most difficult part of the job, and would like to hear a 
>  technique to accomplish.
>  Of course, right now my biggest concern is Floyd, as he leaves me here in 
SC,
>  
>  and heads up the coast to Stargazer where she sits  in NY. I don't want 
her 
>  launching herself without me!!!
>  Thx,
>  Lee 
>  Stargazer #255

I second that, Lee.
I didn't know Stargazer was in NY. Where? I'm in Jersey.
Paul,
Ashwagh #23

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 937554055.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Fri Sep 17 00:30:19 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:19 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

Scott:
    We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
                            - Gordon White A-275



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 937553419.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 17 06:50:25 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <d9a4cb2d.25129219@aol.com> from "FINNUS505@aol.com" at Sep 16,
	99 02:34:01 pm
Message-ID: <199909171350.JAA01030@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Lee,  I'm not even sure he'll tackle the job any more.  You could
call him; he's in the handbook.

 - George

> FINNUS505 at aol.com said:
> 
> George,
> Any idea what Brude charges for a new toe rail, ball park to the nearest 
> thousand?


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937576225.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Fri Sep 17 08:42:15 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <75786131.25128917@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

Well, I've done the job myself - on a very short section of about three
feet near the bow where a chock pulled out, taking some of the wood with it.

The carpentry is not rocket science but does take a lot of precise
measurement of the various tapers because no faces are square. All the work
can be done with a table saw and the usual hand tools including a rasp for
final forming.  It seems that all the tapering was done at about 20 degrees
so that the cuts were not all that difficult once you figured the order of
cut.  (I remember that most of the companionway cuts were about 20 degrees,
too.)  The hardest part of the woodworking was cutting one of the pretty Z
shaped scarfs and matching it to a new scarf cut in the existing toe rail.
That's where the rasp was handy.  I'm not sure how I would handle a much
longer section, though, which would require bending the teak to follow the
curve of the deck.  In theory one could steam it in a form to the right
curve, but I'm glad I didn't have to try it.  I wonder how the folks at
Whitby did it? Surely they couldn't have afforded the time for all that
steaming and hand work.

More difficult was removing the quarter inch stainless steel thru bolts
holding the toe rail to the deck.  They were all bent with time and nearly
impossible to unbolt from inside the forepeak.  I wound up twisting the
heads off two of them, which is pretty hard to do with stainless.  Once
that was done, the rest was a piece of cake.  I thought about trying to use
the existing bolt holes thru the deck but that would have been too tough to
align, so I filled them in with sealant and fastened the toe rail with new
holes.  

I found a piece of 5/4 teak which worked perfectly.  I have enough left
over to replace another short section by the shrouds which got dinked. The
hull is straight there, so no bending needed either. That'll be a winter
project when she's up on the blocks again.  I wouldn't not recommend trying
to do that type of work afloat unless you've got a nice flat calm
anchorage, unlike mine.

Cheers,
Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

At 01:55 PM 9/16/99 EDT, FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:

>You put into words what I was too lazy to!  It's a complicated piece of
wood, 
>that toe rail on the older boats.
>Let's hear from someone who has done the job, replaced the rail, pref. by 
>themselves, or at least give us an idea of what it costs to have done 
>professionaly. [...]

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 937582935.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 10:17:42 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:17:42 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
Message-ID: <cbf9aa15.2513d1b6@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Bob,
Thx for the detailed description of your toe rail project.  Unfortunately, it 
just confirmed all my fears of it being a bear of a job!!  I would have to 
get a new table saw- I have a Harbor Freight, chicago tool special which is 
about as accurate as one of their russian watches.  The 20 degree figure is 
interesting, though.
It's going to be 'a while' before I tackle this project, for certain!!
Take care,
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937588662.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 12:34:47 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:34:47 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
Message-ID: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Hi Shawn,
You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
One of the improvements  I like in the 'new' boats is the cockpit locker 
hatch covers. They really are better than the old simple lid design of the 
original. But we have to deal with it.
I had to make new lids for Stargazer, and looked long and hard at a way to 
make them as water tight as I could.  An idea has occured to me now, months 
after I built them.
I am going to route out a groove on the underside of the lid, directly over 
the inner lip of the waterway molded into the cockpit seat where the lid 
closes. Into this groove, I'll glue weatherstripping.
This is the best I can come up with. It has to be better than simply having 
the wood sitting against the inside of the waterway, which has to leak if 
significant water gets into the cockpit when the boat is heeled over.  I 
can't implement the plan this season, but if you wait till next season, I'll 
tell you how it worked!!.
Lee
Stargazer #255

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 937596887.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Fri Sep 17 12:41:39 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Cockpit locker hatch covers, old design
References: <515fe3a2.2513f1d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37E29973.B8C44E17@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

FINNUS505 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: FINNUS505 at aol.com
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> You asked about making the old design cockpit locker hatch covers water tight?
>...

In my old (1966) A-30, I simply obtained automotive "D" section weather
stripping, and attached it using the self-adhesive to the bottom of the
hatches. I replace it every 3-4 years. You need to find a fairly thin
and compressible version of this stuff. I can't swear that the insides
of the lockers are -perfectly- dry, but it's worked pretty well. Should
be easy to find at an auto parts store, or mail order from JC Whitney or
the like. Some types of weather stripping sold for houses would probably
also work.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201 (1966), Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake

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 937597299.0

From apk2 at home.com  Fri Sep 17 19:05:30 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Toe rail replacement
In-Reply-To: <001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
References: <326bebbf.250f257b@aol.com> <199909142320030590.004605B6@mail>
	<001401bf004c$e0268ac0$365f143f@unit01>
Message-ID: <199909172205300020.05FEA536@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

They are  not square as you know. Mine are 14" wide on the bow end, 11 7/8" on the stern end. 35 7/8" on the hinge side, 36" on the cockpit side. The solid teak edges are 1" wide all round with mitred corners by 3/4' thick on all sides but the cockpit side where the teak is 1" by 1" with the bottom lip tapering to meet the 3/4" thick ply, thereby providing a finger lift. Here again i used Marine Birch Ply and veneered it with teak edges, so the MP is the above dimensions less 1" on all sides.

Your mileage may vary. My boat is a 1965, I have seen a boat in the upper 400's where it looked like the cokpit lockers were different. My best advice to you it to use your old ones as a template, cut them oversize, then take them to the boat and mark them with a pencil to fit and then cut and finish.

Alan

ps. Silly question, but is your piano hinge on backwards?

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/1999 at 10:03 AM Shawn Orr wrote:

>From: "Shawn Orr" <Shawnwilliam at msn.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>can you send me the dimensions for the locker tops.  I have mine on now but
>they do not close right.  I attached them with piano hinge but I had to
>leave enough space so that they close all the way.
>



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 937620330.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 17 22:35:58 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:35:58 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net>
Message-ID: <37E324BE.3D3857B7@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Scott -

There are several A-30s and A-35s on the southern Pamlico Sound & its
tributaries, and around Beaufort.  There was a new member listed several
months ago that listed a creek near Englehard, N.C. as their home port, if
anyone still has a copy.  This is on the mainland side, but not too far from
Ocracoke by water, or from Swan Quarter by car.

Good luck.

dls

Scott Wallace wrote:

> From:   Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>
>
> Hi Albergians,
>
> Do any of you have an Alberg 30 or 35 in the vicinity of
> Cape Hatteras or Ocrakcoke Island?
>
> My wife and I will be vacationing in Carolla, north of Nag's
> Head, starting this Saturday, September 18, 1999...for two
> weeks.  We will make a day trip during our stay to
> Ocracoke.  We are in need of action and at rest photographs
> of Albergs to illustrate our article on Carl Alberg for an
> upcoming issue of Good Old Boat plus we want to interview
> owners and use additional photos for future articles
> specifically on the Alberg 30 and 35.  If you would be
> available for us to photograph your boat, please let me know
> by no later than late tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott and Nan Wallace
>
> sailors of Spindrift, Pearson Electra designed by Carl Aberg
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937632958.0

From tristan at one.net  Fri Sep 17 16:09:57 1999
From: tristan at one.net (Scott Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [alberg30] HELP!  Albergs at Outer Banks?
References: <37E18C30.33286B12@one.net> <37E1EE0B.B5A340AE@crosslink.net>
Message-ID: <37E2CA42.B3C4480F@one.net>

From:	Scott Wallace <tristan at one.net>

Hi Gordon,

I will be signing off the list tomorrow so if you would be kind enough to
forward your phone number I will give you a call...

Thanks,

Scott

Gordon White wrote:

> From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>
>
> Scott:
>     We're in the southern Chesapeake Bay but not Nag's Head.
>                             - Gordon White A-275
>
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 937609797.0

From apk2 at home.com  Sat Sep 18 14:23:50 1999
From: apk2 at home.com (Alan P. Kefauver)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mechanic for Graymarine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <3.0.3.32.19990917114215.01ce2230@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <199909181723500880.0005518D@mail>

From: "Alan P. Kefauver" <apk2 at home.com>

Does anyone know a mechanic in the Baltimore area (or Annapolis if he/she will drive to Baltimore) who can work on a GrayMarine 25?
Thanks
Alan
Andante #125


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 937689830.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 21:59:18 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:59:18 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Storm jib
Message-ID: <e642edee.2515c7a6@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Dick a storm jib, smaller than the working jib, is a sort of surival sail.  
The working jib and a double reefed main will handle 40-45K winds/ I've done 
it.  Unless you are at sea, and fit a storm trisail and a storm jib, I don't 
think you will use this inventory.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937717158.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Sun Sep 19 21:23:43 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
Message-ID: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts'
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From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:44:22 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:44:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts (at the hull end)
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BBA5.E5B882EB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bill; 
The chainplate bolts, particularly the uppers, were undersized being
fully threaded 1/4" machine screws in sheer.  It is a shortcoming in an
other wise robust rig.

Solution, take them out, they will be bent most likely, drill out the
chain plate to 5/16" or 3/8" and install proper shanked hex head bolts
with the shank in way of the sheer forces - that is the head on the
chain plate side.  

How much you drill out the holes will depend on how much the bent bolts
chew up the bulkhead when you remove them. 

For a proper job you should also replace the lower chainplate bolts too
as it was those that failed when Yves G?linas lost his mast South of New
Zealand.   You're not planning a Southern Ocean passage, well more than
one 30 has had a chain plate pop, even on Lake Ontario.

The lowers can be replaced with 1/4 to 5/16 shanked SS hex bolts as they
are twined.

While you're at it check your gooseneck and see if there are pop rivets
where the boom fits into the gooseneck sleeve fitting.  If there are
machine screws there all is well, if there are pop rivets change them to
machine screws, 1/4" and thread them in, use round head screws or hex
head not flat head as it will give the strongest connection.

Don't be concerned, you haven't bought a turkey, you should see some of
the modern boat fittings in other classes.  The A-30 is a robust
construction with good fitting out for the most part but there are a few
minor deficiencies which are fairly easy to remedy.  Join the Great
Lakes or Chesapeake Associations, which ever is closer to your area, and
enjoy.

Oh yea, if you have a very early boat with wooden spreaders keep a close
eye and lots of varnish on them, I had a set made in Aluminium air foil
shape for $300 CDN as I found rot in mine.   Don't let them change the
spreader base design though as it is plenty strong.

Fair winds,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, (ex Wind Rose KC-544)

 

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937802662.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Sun Sep 19 21:51:00 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
References: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <37E5BD34.1C888EDB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Oh yea, I forgot to answer the "divine intervention" question on removal
of chainplates, it is very easy once you have the bolts out, it is just
a SS strip.  Use lots of caulking, 291 or 5200 when you seal it back in
and use big ( 1" + ) flat washers on the bulkhead side.

Cheers,

J B

> Bill DeWitt wrote:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience.
> As a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'

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 937803060.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Mon Sep 20 06:14:49 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] chainplate bolts
In-Reply-To: <001501bf0320$a64d8c00$4c8f41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com> from "Bill
	DeWitt" at Sep 19, 99 09:23:43 pm
Message-ID: <199909201314.JAA03419@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Bill,

Further to what John said, Bruce Rankin did some calculations
and found that the chainplate bolts were about half the strength
of the rest of the rig.  He wrote this up in an article (now in
the maintenance manual) suggesting either doubling the number of
1/4" bolts or increasing the size to 5/16".  In either case, make
sure you use shanked bolts, not ones threaded all the way down.
The threads make a 1/4" bolt effectively a 3/16" one in strength.
And, don't forget the backstay.  It's the same sort of arrangement.

When you do the job, check the attachment points for rot.  Chainplates
tend to leak for a long time before being noticed.  I used Rule
Elastomeric caulk and like the way it worked.  It stays soft and
rubbery.  I just did this job last winter, though, so time will 
tell.

As for gooseneck rivets, well, John was racing my boat when all
five rivets sheared at once.  It was a close call that no one 
was injured.

 - George

> Bill DeWitt said:
> 
> John Birch, mesmerized by your intriguing 'white squall' experience. As =
> a newbie, my attention was snagged by your reference to =
> "thankful...changed the upper chainplate bolts to 3/8 shanked hex =
> heads".  Any hints? Requires further drilling? An act of divine =
> intervention to get the old ones out?......thanks
> Bill DeWitt
> 'Simple Gifts'


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937833289.0

From hiplt at pacifier.com  Mon Sep 20 08:34:16 1999
From: hiplt at pacifier.com (Bill DeWitt)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:34:16 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <001601bf037d$bf2f32c0$dd8e41d8@hiplt.pacifier.com>

John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  
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From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 09:56:41 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:56:41 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Refinishing the decks, revisited
Message-ID: <cf0a5ae2.2517c149@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

A few weeks weeks ago, someone mentioned a product that he/she had used in 
lieu of repainting the hulls and decks to revive the finish of their A30's 
original gelcoat.  I have searched my emailbox and cannot locate the 
reference.  I would be grateful if someone could resend the information to me.

Many thanks,

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City 

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 937846601.0

From FINNUS505 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 14:17:28 1999
From: FINNUS505 at aol.com (FINNUS505 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:17:28 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] solutions
Message-ID: <3432d71f.2517fe68@aol.com>

From: FINNUS505 at aol.com

Marilyn singing "Happy Birthday Mr; President".........well, I guess your 
right, actualy!!  :) :) :)  In the Galinas video when Jean de Sud is twirling 
in a bridle in the Channel Islands after repairs, you get some nice views of 
the bottom, and her, to continue the metaphor, sensuous lines.  Fin keelers 
just don't understand.  Carl did.
Have you seen this new Maritime magazine on the newstands? Pricy, yes, but 
look at the article on Stormy Weather and Dorade, two of my all time favorite 
designs.  Full lines drawings of them both, and they are beautiful.  Not 
Marilyn, but Raphael or Titian models. But at 52 or 53 feet, more boat than I 
need.  And who is going to caulk all those seams?  And we're not talking 
simply keeping the pressure constant on a BoatLife gun, but lapping in the 
strands of cotton, then hitting that little chisel  with that funny looking 
hammer.  I've seen it done, and know enough to know I don't know how to do it 
right!!!

Bill wrote:
John/George, got it. I have about a week left in the boatyard before the 
Oregon coast weather gets foul and I bring her back to Astoria. I want to get 
all the preventive maintance done I can. As to the 'turkey' aspect not a day 
passes without an admiring inquiry from a star-truck passerby, including some 
hardcrusted commerical fishermen, some of whom don't have much patience for 
'toys'. Her stern aspect (up on blocks) does have some wonderfully senuous, 
curvilinear archtypical memory about her (like Marilyn singing Happy 
Birthday, Mr. President....) Thanks
Bill DeWitt
'Simple Gifts' #249  

take care, all
Lee
Stargazer #255

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 937862248.0

From kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Sep 20 20:56:25 1999
From: kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>

There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
solve it for me.

It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
icebox.)

Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
the boat that everyone should know about.

Bob Kirk
Isobar #181

(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)

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 937886185.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:19:21 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:21 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Sounds like an ice pick holder.

Mark
Jocelyn 585

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 937876761.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Mon Sep 20 20:18:58 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 23:18:58 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
References: <3.0.3.32.19990920205625.0069751c@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <37E6F922.75F196E0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Bob are you bragging?
"(with the cleanest bottom in the bay)" ;)
Take care,
JB
Robert Kirk wrote:
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> 
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 937883938.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 21:56:10 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:56:10 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <da53a39e.251869ea@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Bob, I've had my boat for 12 years, and haven't run across anything quite 
like that.  I have , however, found bits that don't see to fit anything.  
Solution:  take it home, put it on a shelf, just in case , someday, someone 
tells you how to use it.
Might even be part of a childs toy.
Russ Pfeiffer

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 937889770.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Tue Sep 21 06:01:17 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
In-Reply-To: <988cc98b.25183719@aol.com> from "Mpete53@aol.com" at Sep 20,
	99 09:19:21 pm
Message-ID: <199909211301.JAA21948@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

> Mpete53 at aol.com said:
> 
> Sounds like an ice pick holder.
> 
> Mark
> Jocelyn 585

Yep, sounds like that to me, too.  We've got one that came with
a dandy little stainless steel ice-pick.  Bob, if you don't have
the ice-pick, itself, it's not a terribly important piece of 
equipment.  But how do you keep your G&T cold?

 - George


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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 937918877.0

From dans at stmktg.com  Tue Sep 21 06:49:47 1999
From: dans at stmktg.com (Dan Sternglass)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] On-line index -- very useful
Message-ID: <37E78CFB.10091213@stmktg.com>

From: Dan Sternglass <dans at stmktg.com>

A-30 people,

I came across this online index to back issues of Practical Sailor.

--> http://windfallconsult.com/about1.htm

Then click on categories.

Hope this is useful, both for folks like me with a pile of old PS's, but
also for those who want to order a particular back issue.

Practical Sailor's URL is

--> http://www.practical-sailor.com/

It may be possible to order from their customer service link on their
web page, I don't know, I've never tried it.

BTW, I have no affiliation with the index provider or P.S.

--Dan Sternglass
dans at stmktg.com
Watcher of the Skies, #201, 1966, Cayuga Lake, Ithaca, NY

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 937921787.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:26:55 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:26:55 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017615.20722@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017615.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:24:48 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:24:48 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017488.0

From jack at abs.net  Wed Sep 22 09:25:09 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 22 Sep 1999 16:25:09 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
Message-ID: <938017509.3538@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

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 938017509.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 22 15:43:51 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
In-Reply-To: <938017509.3538@onelist.com> from "jack@abs.net" at Sep 22,
	99 04:25:09 pm
Message-ID: <199909222243.SAA00134@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

Jack,

Couldn't it also be a head gasket?  Even if you've got no water in
the cylinders, you could have leakage in the compression cycle.
There's an atomic 4 mailing list on SailNet
(http://www.sailnet.com/list/atomic4/index.cfm).  You might want
to join that and ask there.

 - George

> jack at abs.net said:
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938040231.0

From RLeach at mbayaq.org  Thu Sep 23 06:20:11 1999
From: RLeach at mbayaq.org (Rick Leach)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:20:11 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Mystery Widget
Message-ID: <DA54BBC705F2D111907D080009EE98C412D437@TUNAFLASH>

From: Rick Leach <RLeach at mbayaq.org>

Bob,

Just guessing here...I've got something very similar, but made of plastic,
that lives in a spring clip in the galley.  It's where the ice pick lives.

RL

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Kirk[SMTP:kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Reply To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Sent: 	Monday, September 20, 1999 8:56 PM
> To: 	alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: 	[alberg30] Mystery Widget
> 
> From: Robert Kirk <kirk at neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> There's a  mystery widget on Isobar that came with the boat and I've never
> been able to figure out what it's for.  maybe the wisdom of this group can
> solve it for me.
> 
> It's a tubular piece of Bakelite or such about 3/8 OD with a 1/8 dia hole
> running thru it. It's about four inches long with an enlargement to a 3/4
> inch diameter  bobbin like apparatus at one end.  It's stored on a small
> spring bracket above the ice box on the port side.  It looks as if it
> might
> be a reducing coupler between the pieces of tubing, but what for? (It's
> too
> big to plug in the icebox drain. My icebox has been rebuilt from the early
> drop top configuration. This thing probably has nothing to do with the
> icebox.)
> 
> Any ideas?  I'd be very embarrassed if it was a vital and common part of
> the boat that everyone should know about.
> 
> Bob Kirk
> Isobar #181
> 
> (with the cleanest bottom in the bay)
> 
> > 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938092811.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 16:06:38 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:06:38 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] Teak for A30 Hatches
References: <19990910233430.AAA6249@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>
Message-ID: <37EAB27E.3278@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

Joe Tokarz wrote:
> 
> From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
> 
> Does anyone in the Annapolis area have a suggestion on a place to buy teak?
> I am replacing the wood inlays in my hatches and I plan to use teak strips
> about 1/8" thick and 2-3" wide. I plan to cut the teak strips from stock,
> maybe a 4"x4", on a table saw. I will embed the teak in the hatches using
> epoxy mixed with the dark West System pigment/filler.
> 
> Who has teak in stock like that?
> 
> Thanks in advance;
> 
> Joe #499
> One Less Traveled
> 
> Joe, 

Siewers Lumber in Richmond (804-358-2103) carries teak, mahogany and
lots of other beautiful woods. The teak is usually 5/4 and 6 to 10
inches wide. $14. a board foot . I redid the cockpit covers this year
they came out great. I routered out the old plywood. filled with
lightweight epoxy and epoxied in 1/2" teak strips 2 to 3 inches. I tried
sealing with teak oil but it did not hold up very well. I then tried
star brite teak oil tropical teak color. What a difference whatever the
make it out of Im sold . I sanded out the toe rails and did those too.
Nest the rest of the topside. Im not a varnisher.. good luck, If i can
be of help ask away.. 


Joel.  #449 (Janus)


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938127998.0

From jlsasha at erols.com  Thu Sep 23 17:20:28 1999
From: jlsasha at erols.com (JANET LEMBO)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:20:28 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] No compression in 1 and 2
References: <938017488.3107@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37EAC3CC.740C@erols.com>

From: JANET LEMBO <jlsasha at erols.com>

jack at abs.net wrote:
> 
> From: jack at abs.net
> 
> My Annabelle(453) has no compression in 1 and 2 cyls.,either dry or saturated with oil. Thusly there seems to be a valve problem. Is there any way to correct
> problem without removing head? Can a complete valve job be accomplished without taking the engine out? Will putting around on 2 cylinders hurt the a4 further?
> I appreciate any help and thanks in advance.
> 
> Jack, The valves on a flathead can be done without removal. Suggest you
pull off the head and exhaust manifold. Pull the plugs and manually
rotate the engine to see if the valves lift. a flat cam can cause the
same symptoms no inlet air to compress.. The valves could also not be
closing all the way.  Joel #449 (Janus)


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938132428.0

From joseph-fleming at usa.net  Tue Sep  7 02:28:51 1999
From: joseph-fleming at usa.net (Joseph Fleming)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:28:51 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing
Message-ID: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>

From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>

Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I 
understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and 
vibration.

Thanks much...Joe Fleming	

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 936696531.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Fri Sep 24 06:31:17 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:31:17 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Rudder shaft bearing, A TEFLON SOLUTION
References: <01BEF8FB.8A7118A0.joseph-fleming@usa.net>
Message-ID: <37EB7D25.73DBCEB7@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Joseph;
I have very successfully used mechanical teflon sheeting as a shim stock
in the intermediate rudder strap on my A-37.   In my case I used 1/32"
sheeting, cut it to fit completely around the post and clamped the strap
back over it (it is in two halves) which sandwiched the teflon and held
it in place.

I did the the same thing to the rudder shoe as I had a 1/16" play in the
shaft or near enough.  

It has worked great, the play has so far not returned and the cost was
infinitesimal.  Go to a good plastics supplier or one that makes
mechanical bearings and buy a sq. foot of teflon sheeting stock in the
thickness needed.

To determine the thickness measure your side to side play with the boat
out of the water and divide that number in 2, that will be the thickness
you need as it goes completely around the post and the lower pin.

You will have enough shim stock to last you a lifetime, should it ever
need replacing and no risk of electrolytic corrosion nor wear of the
bronze unlike some other plastics which can abrade metal.

That's my experience anyway.

Cheers,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65

Joseph Fleming wrote:
> 
> From: Joseph Fleming <joseph-fleming at usa.net>
> 
> Does anyone have a souce for the middle rudder shaft bearing?   I
> understand that a worn bearing here can cause quite a lot of noise and
> vibration.
> 
> Thanks much...Joe Fleming
> 
> 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938179877.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Fri Sep 24 09:48:40 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199909241648.MAA12626@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in error.

I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US Coast
Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

 - George

> Peter Amos said:
> 
> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title gave the =
> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This number =
> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from what =
> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a true hull =
> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all over the =
> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any hull =
> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
> 
> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent with the =
> boat being manufactured in 1973?
> 
> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on the =
> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also "Morag".=20
>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat. =20
> 
> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her while I am =
> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some measurements.If =
> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at the =
> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam width =
> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
> =20
> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking headsails on =
> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a very low =
> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual but I =
> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power output =
> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to fix =
> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine. =20
> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
> 


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938191720.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 09:58:15 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81B84@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>



	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------

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Greetings
	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
	   <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing11 ">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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 938192295.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Fri Sep 24 10:14:44 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:14:44 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01D81BD7@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

My recollection is that the uniform numbering system went into place in
1972, though I can't find a reference for it.

 Is the boat clearly a "Mark II" with a hull liner? If so, that would jib
with  #478, since the change occurred around #411.

If the marking is not externally on the transom in the standard place, it
may have been obliterated and a new number assigned when it was "adopted"
into the Venezuelan registry.

Let us know what you find.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	George Dinwiddie [SMTP:gdinwiddie at min.net]
	Sent:	Friday, September 24, 1999 12:49 PM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	[alberg30] Hull numbers (fwd)

	From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

	This message was apparently sent to me, instead of the list, in
error.

	I don't know what the 42ESJ82 number is.  In any event, I have hull
	number 543 built in 1973.  I think that it was 1973 that the US
Coast
	Guard started requiring ID numbers to be molded into the upper right
	corner of the transom.  You might check there for any numbers.

	 - George

	> Peter Amos said:
	> 
	> Last November I bought an Alberg 30 in Miami. The Florida title
gave the =
	> hull identification number as 42ESJ82 and the year as 1973. This
number =
	> is stamped into the plastic sill behind the companionway, but from
what =
	> I have read in one of the back digests it does not seem like a
true hull =
	> number which should include the length and date. I crawled all
over the =
	> boat during the six months I lived on her but did not find any
hull =
	> number plates. On the mainsail is A30 and the number 478.
	> 
	> Questions :does 42ESJ82 mean anything?
	>                  if the hull number is 478, is this consistent
with the =
	> boat being manufactured in 1973?
	> 
	> Her name is "Tait Tait" and when I bought her she had La Guara on
the =
	> stern as a Port of Registry (Venezuela I think)
	> She has been named "Come by Me" in the past and possibly also
"Morag".=20
	>  Does anybody have any information on the history of this boat.
=20
	> 
	> I want to get a boom tent or some sort of bimini made for her
while I am =
	> home in the U.K.(the boat is in Florida) and need some
measurements.If =
	> someone could let me know the length of the boom,the beam width at
the =
	> mast,I assume 8' 9" but would appreciate confirmation,and the beam
width =
	> at the aft end of the boom I would be grateful.
	> =20
	> "Tait Tait" has wheel steering, a mixed blessing, a Navico =
	> autopilot,Harken headsail furling,a delight after hanking
headsails on =
	> and off singlehanded in rough weather with no autopilot, and a
very low =
	> hours Universal/Westerbeke 18hp M320A. I may be a little unusual
but I =
	> preferred the Atomic 4 I used to have on aTartan 27. The power
output =
	> was better and if something went wrong it was usually possible to
fix =
	> it.I know all the objections to gasoline motors but I liked mine.
=20
	> Peter Amos      P.A.Amos at tesco.net U.K.=20
	> 


	-- 
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------
	  George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie at min.net
	  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent
in
	  sailing.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
	
----------------------------------------------------------------------

	--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------

	Share your special moments with family and friends- send PHOTO
Greetings
	at Zing.com! Use your own photos or choose from a variety of funny,
	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
	   <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/zing11 ">Click Here</a>

	
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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 938193284.0

From jack at abs.net  Sun Sep 26 17:10:22 1999
From: jack at abs.net (jack at abs.net)
Date: 27 Sep 1999 00:10:22 -0000
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>

From: jack at abs.net

Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it 
with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended 
gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would 
like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
                                                 Jack

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 938391022.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Sun Sep 26 20:46:30 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:46:30 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <37c78134.25204296@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

Jack, you can have that water pump rebuilt.  I had mine done about 3 years 
ago, and it cost about $110.  It started leaking a lot more than a few drops 
in a hurry.  A leaking water pump can sink your boat.  Don't forget to change 
the impeller with the rebuild.  Russ Pfeiffer

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 938403990.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 07:51:05 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:51:05 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A307, where are you?
Message-ID: <7485802a.2520de59@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

After a long summer of weekend lulls, we expatriate members up here on the 
Long Island Sound finally enjoyed a picture-perfect sailing weekend.  The 
sailing gods were in good humour, giving us a northwesterly breeze on our 
outbound eastward sail, and northeasteries for the return home the next day.  
Bliss!

On Saturday, sailing out of Oyster Bay (and nearly into a fleet of racing 
Sunfish, yikes!), we crossed paths with a gorgeous A30 with a navy hull.  
Frantic waves were exchanged, but I was not swift enough to rab the 
binoculars and see if her hailing port was visible.  So, if any of you sail 
307, and you were out in Oyster Bay on Saturday, and were waving wildly at a 
white A30 heading toward a fleet of racing Sunfish, please drop me a line.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City

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 938443865.0

From Mpete53 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 09:14:49 1999
From: Mpete53 at aol.com (Mpete53 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:14:49 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <1e66083d.2520f1f9@aol.com>

From: Mpete53 at aol.com

Jack

Check out   
East End Marine Supply
Long Island # 516-477-1900
Out of local area # 800-832-1752

I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
$125.00 

I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call

Mark

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 938448889.0

From zira at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 27 17:03:42 1999
From: zira at mindspring.com (David Swanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>

From: David Swanson <zira at mindspring.com>

Jack -

It is very simple to replace the pump.  The usual replacement is an Oberdorfer
202M7.  Cost is usually a little over $100.    You just un-bolt the old pump &
bolt on the new one.  I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.

You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.

Good luck.

dls

jack at abs.net wrote:

> From: jack at abs.net
>
> Problem with Annabelle(#453)< was blown gasket between 1 and 2. Replaced it
> with grathite one ,and only one which replaces the 2 previous recommended
> gaskets. The water pump is leaking about 3 drps per second, and would
> like to replace the pump. Is this as difficult as it looks?
>                                                  Jack
>
> 

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 938477022.0

From bobjns at nais.com  Mon Sep 27 14:15:18 1999
From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:15:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <v01520d02b4158ac9a338@[204.253.76.153]>

From: bobjns at nais.com (REJ)


>I have a 1995 catalog which lists a new Oberdorfer pump for the Atomic 4 @ 
>$125.00 
>
>I am sure that the price has changed, but it is worth a phone call
>
>Mark
>

Jack,

        I  believe that the original water pump on the Atomic 4 is a Jabsco. The Oberdorfer is a larger capacity pump that is physically interchangable with the Jabsco. I normally use the Oberdorfer and carry the original Jabsco as a spare. The impellers and gaskets are nor interchacgable. If you think about buying a new pump, buy the Oberdorfer.

Regards,
                        Bob Johns, #397

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 938466918.0

From SandersM at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 14:52:36 1999
From: SandersM at aol.com (SandersM at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:52:36 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] A30 half-hull models
Message-ID: <539cf195.25214124@aol.com>

From: SandersM at aol.com

TO THE LIST:

While browsing the Web, I came across a site for a half-hull modeler who 
offers A30 models, painted with your boat's paint finishes, for $265.  The 
Web site says that they are offering a 25% off summer sale; a call confirms 
that they are still honoring the sale, for the time being.  

Half-hull models are hardly essentials, but they do help keep one sane 
through the armchair-sailing winter months.  If you want to check them out, 
the Web site's home page is:

http://www.scalemodelco.com/index.htm  

They have a few illustrations of their work on the site, including a photo of 
an Alberg 35 model (no 30s, alas).  The URL for the photo:  

http://www.scalemodelco.com/images/models/alberg35.jpg

I'm thinking of splurging.  If I do, I'll post a note to let you all know if 
the work is as good as it appears in the picture.

Sanders McNew
WILD ELF (# 297)
New York City.

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 938469156.0

From fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net  Mon Sep 27 21:37:09 1999
From: fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net (greg vandenberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 00:37:09 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
References: <938391022.1175@onelist.com> <37F005DE.A0F785C0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <37F045F0.CB060A2@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

From: greg vandenberg <fashionguy at mailhost.kal.ameritech.net>

Just a quick question for someone please. Is there a gasket between the pump
flange and the face on the block where the pump attaches. I don't think I have
ever found one there on Bathtub Mary's Atomic 4 and I can't say that I've seen
a leak at that location. We do have one gasket under that plate those little
screws hold to the pump.

Regards- Greg

David Swanson wrote: I usually take my pump off to replace the impeller, that
> way I don't drop the little screws in to the bilge.
> 
> You might want to take the old pump & try to fix the leak before scrapping it.
> Usually, it leaks around the little drain screw in the bottom, or where the
> pump bolts to the engine.  A new gasket will often fix either one.
>

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 938493429.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Tue Sep 28 02:27:04 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 05:27:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
References: <938244562.22661@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F089E8.2D83@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
Doliner

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 938510824.0

From Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov  Tue Sep 28 06:21:13 1999
From: Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov (Forhan, Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
Message-ID: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>

From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938524873.0

From doug.stevens at sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 08:29:04 1999
From: doug.stevens at sympatico.ca (Doug Stevens)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
In-Reply-To: <6BAA4FF604A4D2119AD10008C7A4EFBB01DBA29E@hrm06.house.gov>
Message-ID: <LPBBIBCNJNAKKLJKAPGOKEAMCAAA.doug.stevens@sympatico.ca>

From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>

The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
have fun.
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
To: alberg30 at onelist.com
Subject: [alberg30] Hull number


From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>

Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
	To:	alberg30 at onelist.com
	Subject:	Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389

	From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

	Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
	documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
	Doliner

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	                 cute, cool and animated cards.       
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938532544.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 18:13:24 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Fire back in 1 and2
Message-ID: <646548f0.2522c1b4@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ

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 938567604.0

From cjk at tir.com  Tue Sep 28 19:02:22 1999
From: cjk at tir.com (Chester & Jan Koop)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>

I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcomed.

Chet Koop
Tangaroa #445
-------------- next part --------------
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From A30240 at aol.com  Tue Sep 28 19:09:50 1999
From: A30240 at aol.com (A30240 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
Message-ID: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>

From: A30240 at aol.com

I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough 
to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller 
sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the 
#1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to 
handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.

Jim Davis
Isa Lei
240

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 938570990.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:19:27 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <004c01bf0a1e$abc9f7e0$cb8a28d8@default>
Message-ID: <37F1934F.657B9302@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
using the old working sail #3.

I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
because of the headstay sag factor.

Go for it.

John Birch 

> Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> have on this subject would be welcomed.
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445

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 938578767.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Tue Sep 28 21:25:08 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Full Hoist Head Sail?
References: <73dc8f9e.2522ceee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <37F194A4.5510DCCB@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.

A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> From: A30240 at aol.com
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> 
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 938579108.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:37:35 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
be appreciated.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605055.0

From johnbrugeman at ameritech.net  Wed Sep 29 04:38:40 1999
From: johnbrugeman at ameritech.net (John Brugeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>

From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>

Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
what kind  and any hints as to the installation.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938605120.0

From gewhite at crosslink.net  Wed Sep 29 03:58:07 1999
From: gewhite at crosslink.net (Gordon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:58:07 +0000
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F1F0BF.CC6DF042@crosslink.net>

From: Gordon White <gewhite at crosslink.net>

I had an Autohelm 1000 (tiller steer) on my Alberg for 9 years and was
entirely happy with it. Just sold it on eBay, as I now have a wheel with a
Navico pilot, also very happy with it. I just listed the Autohelm wind vane on
eBay, as it is not compatible with the Navico. The eBay item # for the vane is
172740750.
                                - Gordon White

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938602687.0

From gdinwiddie at min.net  Wed Sep 29 08:10:00 1999
From: gdinwiddie at min.net (George Dinwiddie)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [alberg30] autopilots
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf0a6f$2dd45140$39d18dce@ibmbna336a> from "John Brugeman"
	at Sep 29, 99 07:38:40 am
Message-ID: <199909291510.LAA20179@min.net>

From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at min.net>

John,

I used to have an Autohelm 1000, but when that died, I replaced it 
with a Navico Tillerpilot 200CX.  

For mounting, I use a cantilever mount sticking out from the coaming.
This is an Autohelm product and looks something like that pictured at
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2432
(or http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/12005_f.jpg if that URL
doesn't work).  The difference is that the post is about 6" long
and has a number of holes drilled through it sideways at about 1"
intervals.  It's easy to select the appropriate hole.  Navico has
similar product (http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=2437) but there is no picture there.

Rather than use a bracket on the tiller to get the right height,
I fabricated a plate that fits on the nubbin on the tiller head
and props the tiller up at the right angle.  This also makes it take
less space in the cockpit, because it gets the tiller up above
knee level.

 - George


> John Brugeman said:
> 
> Would like to install an auto tiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind  and any hints as to the installation.


-- 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Dinwiddie                                  gdinwiddie at min.net
  The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in
  sailing.          http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Alberg30/
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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 938617800.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:28:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30]
References: <000a01bf0a6f$07a896c0$39d18dce@ibmbna336a>
Message-ID: <37F2302B.4B1A73C0@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD maker or
Robertson Pilots has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544  

John Brugeman wrote:
> 
> From: "John Brugeman" <johnbrugeman at ameritech.net>
> 
> Would like to install an autotiller on my Mermaid and would like to know
> what kind to install and any hints as to the installation.  Anything would
> be appreciated.
> 
> 
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 938618923.0

From sunstone at idirect.com  Wed Sep 29 08:34:43 1999
From: sunstone at idirect.com (sunstone)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:34:43 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Typo Correction Tiller Pilots
Message-ID: <37F23193.75485688@idirect.com>

From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>

John;
I was formerly a big fan of Autohelm but recently they have been
eclipsed by NAVICO (or what is now SIMRAD/NAVICO as SIMRAD, maker of
Robertson Pilots, has bought out NAVICO).   SIMRAD/NAVICO units are more
powerful, faster response times, consume the same or less power
(depending on the model), and are reliable.  

Whatever unit you choose I would suggest you size it to the lower end of
the range scale, i.e. it is better to go up one size than to use a pilot
that is struggling because it is too close to the boats 8000lb
displacement as the max. size. 

Use displacement figures, rather than L.O.A. to determine the correct
size.

As I have moved to a A-37 my new SIMRAD/NAVICO Pilot, a WP30 (WP300), is
a cockpit wheel mount that blows the Autohelm 4000 out of the water and
easily handled broad reaching in 25 knots with large quartering seas,
repeatedly this summer in Lake Ontario.   The wave frequency is much
shorter on the Great Lakes, yet 6 - 9 footers are not uncommon, giving
the pilot a hard work out, possibly as hard as ocean seas which, though
bigger, are longer in wave period or frequency.

Bottom line my friend Harry in his A-30 was with us mid lake with his
new Autohelm 1000 which melted the solder on a resistor and packed in
forcing him to hand steer 30 miles in the above named conditions this
Summer.   Though we were able to fix it at anchorage the next day, good
grief, my SIMRAD was not even warm to the touch.

For Tiller Pilots You have a choice of SIMRAD TP10 (TP100), TP20
(TP200), TP30 (TP300)  the TP20 or TP30 would be my choice with my bias
going to the TP30 as the faster, more powerful unit.

The models in brackets are the old NAVICO, pre buyout model numbers,
they were all redesigned about 2 years age and are well rated by
Practical Sailor.  West Marine still has some in stock, they're the same
critter I believe.

WWW.SIMRAD.COM      

Good luck,

John Birch, Sunstone KC-65, ex Wind Rose KC-544

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938619283.0

From alberg30 at interactive.net  Wed Sep 29 20:49:25 1999
From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:25 -0500
Subject: [alberg30] autopilot--NAVICO TP5000
Message-ID: <19990930030047.AAA5361@mail.interactive.net@palberg30>

From: alberg30 at interactive.net (Joe Tokarz)

I give the older Navico TP5000 tillerpilot a big thumbs up. We bought our
unit used several years go for @$200 and it kicks ass. --'nuff said. 

Thinking about splurging and buying the hand programmer that matches the
unit.

Joe #499
"One Less Traveled"

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938663365.0

From gorwin at flash.net  Thu Sep 30 19:45:18 1999
From: gorwin at flash.net (Harlan M. Doliner)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:45:18 -0400
Subject: [alberg30] Digest Number 392
References: <938591172.26577@onelist.com>
Message-ID: <37F4203E.1A36@flash.net>

From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>

alberg30 at onelist.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:29:04 -0400
>    From: "Doug Stevens" <doug.stevens at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: RE: Hull number
> 
> The hull no. is 583, built in 1975. The boat name is Candy cane.
> have fun.
> Doug
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forhan, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 9:21 AM
> To: alberg30 at onelist.com
> Subject: [alberg30] Hull number
> 
> From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan at mail.house.gov>
> 
> Harlan, for the record, where is your hull number located?
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Harlan M. Doliner [SMTP:gorwin at flash.net]
>         Sent:   Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:27 AM
>         To:     alberg30 at onelist.com
>         Subject:        Re: [alberg30] Digest Number 389
> 
>         From: "Harlan M. Doliner" <gorwin at flash.net>
> 
>         Our Alberg 30, Evergreen, is hull #489, with the original factory
>         documents indicating she was built and delivered in 1972.  Harlan
>         Doliner
> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:13:24 EDT
>    From: Rap1208 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Fire back in 1 and2
> 
> That's it Greg, that's the way it is.  Russ
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:02:22 -0400
>    From: "Chester & Jan Koop" <cjk at tir.com>
> Subject: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you have on this subject
> 
> Chet Koop
> Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:09:50 EDT
>    From: A30240 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> 
> Jim Davis
> Isa Lei
> 240
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:19:27 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> Listen to your sailmaker.  You will be pleased with the results.
> As for rating, PHRF does not measure luff length and the base rating is
> for a 150-152.9% besides.  A 135 would be a number 2 which will sparkle
> in heavy air with the full hoist.   If you want to splurge on a great #3
> get a 100% full hoist and you'll demolish the competition who are still
> using the old working sail #3.
> 
> I do speak from experience, but have the sails cut fairly flat as there
> is a lot of head stay sag to compensate for regardless as to how hard
> you put on the backstay.   The biggest mistake modern sailmakers make
> with these boats is to cut the sail too full and a large part of it is
> because of the headstay sag factor.
> 
> Go for it.
> 
> John Birch
> 
> > Chester & Jan Koop wrote:
> >
> > I am in the process of replacing the genny (135%) on Tanagroa.  The
> > current (and I believe original) 135 has an 18 inch wire pendant
> > attached to the head.  The sail loft is recommending elimination of
> > the pendant and making the new sail full hoist.  I suspect there was a
> > valid reason for the pendant in the first place and wonder if the
> > additional sail aloft (in a full hoist sail) would have any impact on
> > handling/sailing characteristic or rating of an A30?  Any thoughts you
> > have on this subject would be welcomed.
> >
> > Chet Koop
> > Tangaroa #445
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 00:25:08 -0400
>    From: sunstone <sunstone at idirect.com>
> Subject: Re: Full Hoist Head Sail?
> 
> If it is a full hoist there will be little or no room for a tack
> pendant, I would pitch the pendant and go for the full hoist in either a
> 1,2, or3 as the performance is worth it.
> 
> A30240 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > From: A30240 at aol.com
> >
> > I would go for full hoist, perhaps a short pennant on the tack.  Just enough
> > to get it above the lifeline and reduce chafe on the pulpit.  For a smaller
> > sail, working jib I would raise it about the 18".  This way you can bag the
> > #1 still on the forstay and set the jib above the bagged #1.  Much less to
> > handle in a quick sail change when the wind picks up.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Isa Lei
> > 240
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________________________________________

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 938745918.0

From Rap1208 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 20:29:13 1999
From: Rap1208 at aol.com (Rap1208 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:29:13 EDT
Subject: [alberg30] 
Message-ID: <d180ce8a.25258489@aol.com>

From: Rap1208 at aol.com

I'm useing a small Navco on my boat.  Its just fine except downwind,  Bought 
it in 85
Russ Pfeiffer

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

 938748553.0