[Public-list] RE: ELECTRIC DRIVE

Fri Sep 17 06:28:47 PDT 2004

Thanks Mike for the education.  I'll now move on to other pie in the sky
ideas.  BTW, did you see Yves Gelinas' repower solution?  He mounted an
outboard on a 10' aluminum pole bolted to the side of the hull about where
the cabin ends.  Pole goes down when powering, up when not.  Very practice
but me thinks a compromise  aesthetically.

Roger

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Meinhold, Michael J" <MICHAEL.J.MEINHOLD at saic.com>
To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Public-list] RE: ELECTRIC DRIVE

> I would be very concerned about stability and symmetry if you place the
> genset off amidships and above the current engine location. You shouldn't
> plan to transversely balance 200 lb with a variable load like water or
> holding tank.  If you want to do it in a A30, completely rearrange the
> cabin, rip up the sole and place the set on the keel and make it your
cabin
> table :)
>
> Generally, concentrating weight amidships improves performance in waves.
> Raising weight affects safety. Raising 200 lb by 4inches on a 9000lb boat
> means the center of gravity goes up 200*4/8800 = .091 inches. Doesn't seem
> like much but it will affect transverse motions and sailing peformance
> negatively.
>
> The best powering idea I've heard was Yves Gelinas - take the engine out
and
> fill the space with stores. Very tempting idea after spending July and
> August bent over my A4!
>
> All in all, I definitely agree with the idea that a good boat design (and
> the A30 is an excellent one) is an organic whole, and changing it
> significantly without redesigning completely is unlikely to work.
>
> Mike
> Rinn Duin #272
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org]On Behalf Of Roger L. Kingsland
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:08 PM
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] RE: ELECTRIC DRIVE
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for the feedback.  I found a Farymann 4.3 kW
> (http://www.americasgenerators.com/documents/docs/1078866260.pdf)  that is
a
> little lighter (192 lbs) and smaller for $4k.  The model with a cover
> produces only 57 decibels (about the volume of human conversation) so
> perhaps well designed sound deadening would allow operation at least while
> sailing and maybe while at anchor.  It probably doesn't matter though
> because maximum load is while "under power," I think?
>
> This generator is still 28" front to back and I see your point RE fit.
> Perhaps orientating the 28" dimension fore/aft would help but it would
> probably require moving the main cabin bulkhead aft (in line w/ the port
> bulkhead) and raising the bunk height so the electric generator portion,
> which is lower than the diesel, could fit under the bunk (make no small
> plans).
>
> (Sidebar; along with a host of other dumb ideas, I thought of eliminating
> the forward bump in the galley counter and making a continuous
> port/starboard counter that would be about 8' long with sink amidships,
> stove to port and under counter fridge to starboard; this would allow one
to
> slide the starboard bunk aft.)
>
> Since the width of the gen set is 14", my guess is the base of the unit
> would have to mount about 8" to 10" above the cabin sole.  My Universal 18
> diesel weighs 255 pounds and is mounted, on average, about 4" above the
> sole.  Any thoughts on the effect the higher mounting height but weight
> amidships rather than aft. The additional, off center weight could be
> countered to port with a holding tank under the port V berth and a water
> tank under the main cabin berth,
>
> Not only is ignorance bliss, it makes life so much simpler; therefore, I
> haven't thought about exhaust and inverters and fuel and cooling and
> vibration.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> > Roger -
> >
> >
> > If we assume we don't want to run the generator much when we're not
> > motoring, then the generator has to put out at least 5 HP (down from the
> > 15HP I began with!) at the low end. That's 3.73 kW. I looked up marine
> > generators on http://usdieselengines.com/ and a 3.5 kW model costs about
> > $4200 and
> > occupies  31" x 17.5" x 18 ". You would still have to acoustically
isolate
> > it, cool it and exhaust it, so I can't see how it can quite fit in the
> > hanging locker. It weighs about 215 lbs dry. It also puts out 120V AC so
> you
> > need inverters,
> >
> > I can imagine designing a yacht from scratch with such a system in
place.
> I
> > would save it for a large boat, where the genset could be placed
amidships
> > and low. Still plenty of design and arrangement issues, but attractive
for
> > modularity.
> >
> > In the interest of full disclosure, I am a naval architect, though I've
> not
> > been involved in yacht design. I will "out" J Bergquist too, since he
went
> > to the same school I did (though MUCH later).
> >
> > Mike
> > Rinn Duin #272
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org]On Behalf Of Roger L. Kingsland
> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:46 AM
> > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] RE: ELECTRIC DRIVE
> >
> http://www.americasgenerators.com/documents/docs/1078866260.pdf
>
>
> > Albergers,
> >
> > I looked into electric a few months ago and got great response from
> > http://www.ev-america.com/.  Also,
> > http://www.eboat.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;user=Roger seems to
be
> a
> > pretty good forum on the subject.
> >
> > One approach is not to increase battery storage but to have adequate
power
> > sources (generator, solar, wind, propeller) for the applied load.  It
> seems
> > natural power sources (wind, solar, propeller) are not sufficient to
> sustain
> > long term propulsion so the alternatives are to add lots of heavy
> batteries
> > or include a generator. If I needed to repower, I would seriously look
> into
> > a generator (possibly mounted in the locker opposite the head where it
> could
> > be well insulated) powering an electric motor in the engine compartment.
> > Space taken by the generator would be mostly be made up by space saved
> aft.
> > I think the biggest advantage is the efficiency of power delivery to non
> > propulsion systems (fridge, freezer, air conditioning, radios,
> instruments,
> > radar, home entertainment system, microwave, satellite telephone, my
> wife's
> > computer collection, my George Foreman sandwich grille).  I understand
> > alternators only charge efficiently at higher RPMs and engines (at least
> > diesels) suffer if not run at 75% of full RPM or higher.  Therefore,
> > charging batteries works best only when motoring (unless you idle the
> motor
> > at 2000 RPM).  With a generator, one could run it at maximum efficiency
> > whenever the batteries need to be charged or when under propulsion.  The
> > battery capacity could be just enough to handle the overnight load
> (probably
> > about the same as needed with engine propulsion).
> >
> > Any thoughts
> >
> > Roger L. Kingsland, AIA
> > Managing Partner
> > Kingsland Scott Bauer Associates (KSBA)
> > N40° 27' 49"  W79° 57' 59"
> > 3441 Butler Street
> > Pittsburgh, PA 15201
> > www.ksba.com
> >
> > 1(412) 252-1500 X101 - Office & Voice Mail
> > 1(412) 779-5101 - Mobile (no voice mail)
> > 1(412) 252-1510 - Fax
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "William Wallace" <tristan at one.net>
> > To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 10:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] RE: ELECTRIC DRIVE & Triton, ONDINE
> >
> >
> > > Check out these Electric Drives!
> > >
> > > http://www.rayeo.com/ Electric Outboard
> > >
> > > http://pages.intrstar.net/~brb/submot.html
> > >
> > > Scott Wallace, Rhodes Meridian
> > >
> > > P.S. we found a Pearson Alberg designed Triton, Ondine, in our
> > > midwestern boat yard north of Cincinnati, from Delaware...anyone know
> > > of her past?
> > >
> > > The boatyard guys accused me of drawing and attracting strange older
> > > ocean sailboats to their yard of predominately Hunter, Catalina and
> > > McGregor boats!
> > >
> > > Now they have our Rhodes Meridian, a Pearson Triton and another old
> > > full keeler, that reminds me of a Dana 24!
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 12:50 PM, George Dinwiddie wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, the advantage of electric is not performance, but silence.  I
> knew
> > > > a naval architect on the CompuServe Sailing Forum who was
considering
> > > > building a hybrid launch with a small gas motor in a well-insulated,
> > > > well-isolated box generating the electricity.  The concept was a bit
> > > > bulky for a typical sailboat, though.
> > > >
> > > >  - George
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 12:20:19PM -0400, Gordon Laco wrote:
> > > >> That actually sounds pretty good!
> > > >>
> > > >> Gordon #426
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> The manufacturer sent me an estimate based on the size, shape and
> > > >>> weight of an
> > > >>> A30.  He recommends an an OZtwin motor, a battery pack (8 pcs of
> > > >>> Leoch fiber
> > > >>> battery, 110 Ah each) that will provide 4 knots cruising speed
with
> > > >>> about 8
> > > >>> hours range. Full speed will be approximately 6½ knots and the
range
> > > >>> will be
> > > >>> about 1 hour.  Recharging is while underway (at a slow rate) or
more
> > > >>> rapidly
> > > >>> while plugged into shore power at the dock.  The performance is
not
> > > >>> great, but
> > > >>> it is the cost that really puts this option out of the box.  The
> > > >>> cost of the
> > > >>> total system is about $7,000.00 US.  John Manza
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Public-list mailing list
> > > >>> Public-list at alberg30.org
> > > >>> http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> > > >>
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