[Public-list] Rudder Repair - New Method - Advice Welcome

Thu Sep 30 07:08:27 PDT 2004

Austin,
My thoughts were that during this work that you were planning to remove the rudder stock from the boat to inspect.  Once the rudder stock is separated from the boat you can either replace it or reuse.  Take the stock to the welder and have the parts fabricated and attached.  Then it goes back on the boat with the rudder attached and the new shoe attaches at the bottom.  So the welding could be done elsewhere and the whole mess then reassembled to the boat.  I suppose that one could also install the rudder stock into the boat and then reattach the rudder blade?  I also assumed that you would inspect and repair/replace the fittings on the aft end of the keel as well during this work.

I did not mean to mislead you that my boat had vanes welded to the rudder stock as you intend to fabricate.  On my rudder at each aft keel hinge point and at the lower shoe location there appears to be tabs welded to each side of the rudder stock.  These tabs are about 1" wide and about 6-8" long.  They appear to be through bolted to the rudder.  They are embedded into the rudder and capped with oak wooden strips.  In addition there are several wooden cap strips that run vertical on the rudder at various locations.  I have not taken anything apart yet but the rudder blade seems to be made of fiberglass and reinforced with bronze straps.  The through bolts actually look more like rivets to me.  I really don't know if this was an original manufacturing method or the rudder was repaired at one time using this method.  All the bronze reinforcing straps are embedded into the fiberglass and the oak cap strips cover them all to be flush with the surface.  One of the oak strips is missing so
 that I can see the bronze strap and rivets.  The oak is about 1/8" thick.

I would like to hear from other Albergers to know if any of their boats have/had this type of rudder fabrication.  I have never seen it before on a fiberglass rudder system.
Michael

Austin Meyermann <somedaysailor2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't think the sleeve helps at all except that I do not have a welder to take to the boat. 

With regard to your boat, did the use of the vanes work well on the rudder? 

Austin

Michael Connolly wrote:
Austin,
Are you planning on using a new piece for the rudder stock? You plan to use the Epoxy for a metal to metal bond, correct? New, clean metals tend to bond better. What would be the advantage to adding the sleeve to the rudder stock and then bonding to the stock with Epoxy? Could you not just weld the vanes directly to the rudder stock and avoid the extra piece of the sleeve? (That is how my boat was done hull# 133). The only advantage that I can see is to align the tiller fitting with the rudder blade prior to bonding with Epoxy. You can also accomplish the same by welding vanes directly to the stock using an alignment jig. Epoxies work best in a thin layer appilication. They tend not to be gap filling adhesives.
It seems to me that you might be adding an extra piece to the equation, (the sleeve), and a joint, (the Epoxy bond), that could fail. The sleeve adds nothing to the function or durability of the repair, I don't see the need for it. I would follow the KISS formula.

The whole thing assembles from the bottom and then the shoe goes on. The sleeve does not add to ease of assembly or does it? 

My two cents,
Michael 

Austin Meyermann wrote:
Thank you for the congrats. We love the boat and she just needs a little bit of work.

The sleeve would be 8.5" long and slid up over the stock. The vanes would run the length of the sleeve and then extend 6" out on either side of the rudder (sleeve and vanes would be bronze). I would then through bolt (offset) four times. 

The rudder is wood coated in fiberglass. 

The pins sheared at the point of connection with the stock. Supposedly they were bronze but I don't know. 

Mike Connelly mentioned that he would not trust an exopy resin due to the torque (with regard to adhereing the sleeve to the stock). I don't know enought to agree or disagree, but the torque would be displaced over the total area of the epoxy bond. If epoxy total covered the area between the stock and the sleeve, I would think there wouldn't be an issue. 

Your thoughts?

Austin

nwiddie wrote:
First of all, congratulations on your new boat.

As for the gudgeon, the originals were generally sand-cast bronze. If
you look at http://www.alberg30.org/maintenance/Steering/Gudgeons/
you'll see both a cast and a welded gudgeon. You can also machine one,
but I think the best solution would be to have one cast. Phil Beigel
has had rudder shoes cast and could tell you where you can get it done.
In fact, it might be good to get a small supply cast at one time.

As for the rudder stock, please describe your setup in more detail.
Whitby has used a number of different arrangements over the years. A
couple of these are mentioned in the Alberg 30 Maintenance Manual.

Do you have a wooden or fiberglass rudder? Where are the pins that are
sheared?

I don't know of any A30's with zincs on the rudder. It's not normally a
problem. Even the pin into the rudder shoe usually wears before it
corrodes off.

- George

On Wed, Sep 29, 2004 at 07:08:41AM -0700, Austin Meyermann wrote:
> Hello to all!
> 
> I am the new owner of Inherit the Wind (formerly owned my Mike
> McGovern). I bought her last May and sailed her from Green Point to
> Young's Boatyard. On that note, that was my first time captaining a
> sailboat, my only crew was a friend who had never sailed, and we got
> into enough wind to take in a reef on the main! But what a day!! We had
> a blast and she sailed great.
> 
> I have sailed her most of this year with gear in marginal shape. I
> figured that this year was my year to sail all that I could and I could
> fix anything over winter.....well, I did not make it to winter.
> 
> A month ago, I left my slip and was motoring down the channel when I
> lost steerage. This resulted in a swim to shore, a tow from Phil (the
> owner of Young's and a great guy), and a haul out.
> 
> The 1/4" pins that attach the rudder stock to the rudder had sheared
> (no zincs below the waterline). Additionally, the gudgeon that attaches
> to pintle in the rudder was cracked...stainless steel bolts through the
> bronze....again no zincs.
> 
> So....this leaves me now with a fun project. Please advise on fixing the
> gudgeon, I know these are not a off the shelf item (far from it). Should
> I get a new one machined (don't want to because I think that it would
> be expensive)?
> 
> With regard to the other problem with the pins, I think that I have
> a novel solution. I am going to install a sleeve (1.25" ID) over the
> rudder stock (1.25" OD) and on that sleeve I am going to weld 2 vanes. The
> vanes will hug the rudder on both sides and I will cross bolt through the
> vanes and rudder. To attach the sleeve to the rudder stock, I will use
> epoxy. The vans should displace the force over the length of the welded
> on the sleeve and give superior strength to the traditional .25" pins.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> I look forward to hearing from and meeting you all soon!!!
> 
> 
> Austin & Lucy Meyermann #365 Inherit the Wind
_______________________________________________
Public-list mailing list
Public-list at alberg30.org
http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
_______________________________________________
Public-list mailing list
Public-list at alberg30.org
http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
_______________________________________________
Public-list mailing list
Public-list at alberg30.org
http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
_______________________________________________
Public-list mailing list
Public-list at alberg30.org
http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list

 1096553307.0