[Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank

Wed Mar 30 12:49:05 PST 2005

Why not just lash the tank on a wood base to the pushpit stanchion - that 
way if it leaks it goes over the stern. No need to bother then with leak 
proof lockers and surgery - comes off easily for racing ... or stays on for 
those famous Chesapeake drifters - burgers anyone?  ; )

Just a thought - that's what we do for those howling Lake Ontario 3 knot 
July days.

Cheers,
JB
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net>
To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank

> Hi Roger -
>
> I think you got it all right - you would enjoy reading C.A.Marchaj's book
> "the HydroAerodynamics of Sailing"  Great book.  He wrote another one more
> recently called "Seaworthness, the forgotten factor"  The later is less on
> the science of what is happening than on why some designs of boats are
> makedly better seaboats than others.  The Alberg 30 looks about the best.
>
> Cheers - Gord #426 Surprise
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Mike Lehman
>> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>> Wrote;
>> "At least the forward water tank is not in the overhang of the boat."
>>
>> Roger replies;
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> As the Budweiser ad says, "true."
>>
>> In a never ending quest to confuse myself (and learn just enough to be
>> dangerous), I have been reading up on dynamic loading and discovered 
>> that,
>> unlike static loads where the moment arm is weight times length (from 
>> center
>> of buoyancy),  the moment calculation for dynamic loads is weight times 
>> the
>> length SQUARED.  So, if the fore/aft center of buoyancy is 16' aft 
>> (pretty
>> darn close to the middle of the boat), a full water tank (30 gal @ 7 lbs)
>> has a dynamic moment arm of 210 lbs. times about 8.75 feet squared or a
>> whopping 16,000 lbs.  If a 25 lb propane tank is located all the way aft,
>> the moment arm would still be about 5,000 pounds.  This is a scary 
>> problem;
>> so much so, I have decided to saw off 8 feet from each end of my boat, 
>> which
>> means I now have to completely rethink the layout of the main cabin!
>>
>> While keeping the fore/aft weight near the middle is desirable to prevent
>> "hobbyhorsing," it gets more confusing because the opposite seems true 
>> for
>> transverse weight distribution.  The dynamic stability (ability for boat 
>> to
>> resist wind gusts, side wave impacts, roll going downwind) improves as 
>> the
>> roll moment of inertia (weight times square of distance outboard from 
>> center
>> of gravity) goes up.  Of course, with our boats, it isn't possible to 
>> move
>> weight outboard without moving it up which raises the center of 
>> buoyancy,
>> which compromises the static stability, which confuses me even more, 
>> which
>> makes me want to get back inside "the box" and take a nap after, of 
>> course,
>> bolting the engine to one side of the boat amidships and the water tank 
>> to
>> the other.
>>
>> Mike Meinhold, did I get any of this even close to right?
>>
>>
>> Roger Kingsland
>> Chief Boat Boy, Rubber/Scraper, Numbers Cruncher, Source of Confusion and
>> Check Writer
>> Alberg 30 #148, PERFECT intentions
>> N40-33.92, W79-51.25
>>
>> "You don't have to think outside of the box, but it doesn't hurt to peek
>> over the edge once in a while."
>> Leonardo Da Vinci (or somebody like that)
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
>> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 8:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
>>
>>
>>> At least the forward water tank is not in the overhang of the boat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Lehman
>>> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----Original Message Follows----
>>> From: "Roger L Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
>>> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all 
>>> <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
>>> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:32:41 -0500
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I agree with you on the weight thing and got an aluminum anchor (has
>> anyone
>>> heard of/used aluminum chain?) and plan to abandon the forward water 
>>> tank
>>> for the same reasons.  I also kicked around the idea of a fuel tank
>> (diesel)
>>> under the aft portion of the main cabin sole (double benefit of moving
>>> weight toward the center and getting it lower) but that got poo pooed 
>>> big
>>> time so I stuck it under the cockpit sole.
>>>
>>> To my mind, best reason not to do gas is the kaboom thing.  Why blow up,
>>> when there are so many other ways for the amateur sailor (especially 
>>> this
>>> one) to mess up.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:01 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
>>>
>>>
>>>> This would work. You would need to keep it sealed and separate from the
>>>> locker, which I believe you plan to do. Having said that, I would not
>>>> consider this as a project on my boat eventhough I enjoy cooking on a
>> hot
>>>> stove. IMHO, it would adversly affect the performance of the boat by
>>> placing
>>>> that much weight in the overhang (unsupported) portion of the boat.
>> This
>>>> would be like having someone standing on the aft deck while sailing and
>>>> place to much weight on the ends of the boat, exactly the position
>>> inwhich
>>>> you are trying to keep lightweight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Lehman
>>>> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----Original Message Follows----
>>>> From: "Roger L Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
>>>> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>> <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>>> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:35:43 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Andy,
>>>>
>>>> I had a crazy idea for propane storage that goes something like this;
>>>> - get (or make) a FG cylinder with an inside diameter equal or bigger
>>> than
>>>> access port mentioned below;
>>>> - fit it inside the lazarette locker (outboard on the side opposite
>>> engine
>>>> exhaust) running fore/aft with the aft end a few inches lower than the
>>>> forward end lower (might have to cut it crosswise);
>>>> - fiberglass it to the locker sides at the bulkhead under the traveler
>>> and
>>>> at the transom
>>>> - pressure test the FG install;
>>>> - cut ventilation hole(s) through transom at low point of the cylinder;
>>>> - cut circle and install access port in traveler bulkhead through which
>>> tank
>>>> will be installed (from cockpit);
>>>> - run all those hoses, switches, regulators etc.;
>>>> - to fasten tank in cylinder, place wood "skids" at third points with
>> top
>>>> one wedge shaped and removable (will probably need to cut off mounting
>>>> brackets on horizontal propane tank);
>>>> - if you are a gourmet cook (or love hot showers), do it again on the
>>> other
>>>> side of the lazarette and have a back up tank (need to check if there
>> are
>>>> any regs. RE distance from propane vent and engine exhaust, could be a
>>>> "kaboom" problem).
>>>>
>>>> The idea is to separate a portion of the lazarette from the hull and
>>>> ventilate it directly to the outside.  Of course, the idea only works
>> if
>>> the
>>>> FG cylinder inside the lazarette remains air tight and I don't know if
>>> hull
>>>> flex will degrade the connection between the cylinder and
>>> bulkhead/transom.
>>>> Perhaps use a FG cylinder thin enough to flex with the hull?
>>>>
>>>> Oh great sages of Albergdom, please opine.  Any merit, or just another
>>> Krazy
>>>> Kingsland Kaper.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>>> Roger Kingsland
>>>> Chief Boat Boy, Rubber/Scraper, Thinker of Odd Ideas and Check Writer
>>>> Alberg 30 #148, PERFECT intentions
>>>> N40-33.92, W79-51.25
>>>>
>>>> "You don't have to think outside of the box, but it doesn't hurt to
>> peek
>>>> over the edge once in a while."
>>>> Leonardo Da Vinci (or somebody like that)
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Andrew M Shaw" <andymshaw at juno.com>
>>>> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:31 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gordon,
>>>>>                 I'll run down to the boat and take a look for you.
>>> Wanted
>>>>> to see about placement of my new propane tank anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:24:01 -0500 Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
>>>>> writes:
>>>>>> No problem - but I will back on mine before then - I was hoping to
>>>>>> order a
>>>>>> new traveller today so that it would come before I went away.
>> Can't
>>>>>> wait to
>>>>>> get on the water.  We took the cover off on Friday, a sure way to
>>>>>> make it
>>>>>> snow one more time!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gord
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gord,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you sir. If you can hold off until the end of the week. It
>>>>>> is raining
>>>>>>> here, better than snow off course. We will be working on the
>> boat
>>>>>> at that
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon
>>>>>> Laco
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 4:18 PM
>>>>>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi there -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's an easy one... 14' aft, 12' forward.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now will you tell me how long my traveller is? ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gord
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gord,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Question, what was the draft on the ship used in Master and
>>>>>> Commander?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Stephen
>>>>>>>>
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