[Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
Don Campbell
dk.campbell at sympatico.ca
Thu Mar 31 06:53:27 PST 2005
Gord;
I had an interesting note earlier this month from Bob Muir who has their boat
now in Thornbury after the move from RCYC. His father, Les, bought that boat from
WBW off the line and was a Dragon sailor before the Alberg. Les found that the
full size Dragon mainsail , which is 4 feet shorter on the foot than the Alberg
main was a better balanced sail and I gather they still sail that boat with a
mainsail of Dragon measurments. Also in that discussion was the comment that Kurt
had been the first to import Folkboats to the Toronto Area and had found that the
fractional rig was not quick enough on the uptake in Humber Bay. By
experimenting, again with Dragon foresails, and a masthead rig, they managed a
much more responsive hull to this foil system, which he incorporated on the
folkboats he built as Hansen 26s.
It is my supposition that the change from Alberg's design of a fractional rig
to the masthead rig was done because of the experience with the folkboats in
Humber Bay.
I agree that lead would have been nice.
Don #528
Gordon Laco wrote:
> Yeah, but I still wish that Mr. Hanson had used the lead ballast and
> fractional rig Mr. Alberg intended...
>
> Gord #426
>
> > You could just sail a cork and then you wouldn't have to worry. The Alberg
> > is as about right as it gets. Common sense tells us to keep weigh out of the
> > ends. Just accept the fact that you have bought the perfect boat and go
> > sailing instead of trying to re-design her.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Lehman
> > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "Roger L Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
> > Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
> > Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:36:09 -0500
> >
> > Mike Lehman
> > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> > Wrote;
> > "At least the forward water tank is not in the overhang of the boat."
> >
> > Roger replies;
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > As the Budweiser ad says, "true."
> >
> > In a never ending quest to confuse myself (and learn just enough to be
> > dangerous), I have been reading up on dynamic loading and discovered that,
> > unlike static loads where the moment arm is weight times length (from center
> > of buoyancy), the moment calculation for dynamic loads is weight times the
> > length SQUARED. So, if the fore/aft center of buoyancy is 16' aft (pretty
> > darn close to the middle of the boat), a full water tank (30 gal @ 7 lbs)
> > has a dynamic moment arm of 210 lbs. times about 8.75 feet squared or a
> > whopping 16,000 lbs. If a 25 lb propane tank is located all the way aft,
> > the moment arm would still be about 5,000 pounds. This is a scary problem;
> > so much so, I have decided to saw off 8 feet from each end of my boat, which
> > means I now have to completely rethink the layout of the main cabin!
> >
> > While keeping the fore/aft weight near the middle is desirable to prevent
> > "hobbyhorsing," it gets more confusing because the opposite seems true for
> > transverse weight distribution. The dynamic stability (ability for boat to
> > resist wind gusts, side wave impacts, roll going downwind) improves as the
> > roll moment of inertia (weight times square of distance outboard from center
> > of gravity) goes up. Of course, with our boats, it isn't possible to move
> > weight outboard without moving it up which raises the center of buoyancy,
> > which compromises the static stability, which confuses me even more, which
> > makes me want to get back inside "the box" and take a nap after, of course,
> > bolting the engine to one side of the boat amidships and the water tank to
> > the other.
> >
> > Mike Meinhold, did I get any of this even close to right?
> >
> >
> > Roger Kingsland
> > Chief Boat Boy, Rubber/Scraper, Numbers Cruncher, Source of Confusion and
> > Check Writer
> > Alberg 30 #148, PERFECT intentions
> > N40-33.92, W79-51.25
> >
> > "You don't have to think outside of the box, but it doesn't hurt to peek
> > over the edge once in a while."
> > Leonardo Da Vinci (or somebody like that)
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
> > To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 8:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
> >
> >
> >> At least the forward water tank is not in the overhang of the boat.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Lehman
> >> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----Original Message Follows----
> >> From: "Roger L Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
> >> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> >> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
> >> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:32:41 -0500
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> I agree with you on the weight thing and got an aluminum anchor (has
> > anyone
> >> heard of/used aluminum chain?) and plan to abandon the forward water tank
> >> for the same reasons. I also kicked around the idea of a fuel tank
> > (diesel)
> >> under the aft portion of the main cabin sole (double benefit of moving
> >> weight toward the center and getting it lower) but that got poo pooed big
> >> time so I stuck it under the cockpit sole.
> >>
> >> To my mind, best reason not to do gas is the kaboom thing. Why blow up,
> >> when there are so many other ways for the amateur sailor (especially this
> >> one) to mess up.
> >>
> >> Roger
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
> >> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:01 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
> >>
> >>
> >>> This would work. You would need to keep it sealed and separate from
> > the
> >>> locker, which I believe you plan to do. Having said that, I would not
> >>> consider this as a project on my boat eventhough I enjoy cooking on a
> > hot
> >>> stove. IMHO, it would adversly affect the performance of the boat by
> >> placing
> >>> that much weight in the overhang (unsupported) portion of the boat.
> > This
> >>> would be like having someone standing on the aft deck while sailing
> > and
> >>> place to much weight on the ends of the boat, exactly the position
> >> inwhich
> >>> you are trying to keep lightweight.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mike Lehman
> >>> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----Original Message Follows----
> >>> From: "Roger L Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
> >>> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > <public-list at alberg30.org>
> >>> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...Propane Tank
> >>> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:35:43 -0500
> >>>
> >>> Andy,
> >>>
> >>> I had a crazy idea for propane storage that goes something like this;
> >>> - get (or make) a FG cylinder with an inside diameter equal or bigger
> >> than
> >>> access port mentioned below;
> >>> - fit it inside the lazarette locker (outboard on the side opposite
> >> engine
> >>> exhaust) running fore/aft with the aft end a few inches lower than the
> >>> forward end lower (might have to cut it crosswise);
> >>> - fiberglass it to the locker sides at the bulkhead under the traveler
> >> and
> >>> at the transom
> >>> - pressure test the FG install;
> >>> - cut ventilation hole(s) through transom at low point of the
> > cylinder;
> >>> - cut circle and install access port in traveler bulkhead through
> > which
> >> tank
> >>> will be installed (from cockpit);
> >>> - run all those hoses, switches, regulators etc.;
> >>> - to fasten tank in cylinder, place wood "skids" at third points with
> > top
> >>> one wedge shaped and removable (will probably need to cut off mounting
> >>> brackets on horizontal propane tank);
> >>> - if you are a gourmet cook (or love hot showers), do it again on the
> >> other
> >>> side of the lazarette and have a back up tank (need to check if there
> > are
> >>> any regs. RE distance from propane vent and engine exhaust, could be a
> >>> "kaboom" problem).
> >>>
> >>> The idea is to separate a portion of the lazarette from the hull and
> >>> ventilate it directly to the outside. Of course, the idea only works
> > if
> >> the
> >>> FG cylinder inside the lazarette remains air tight and I don't know if
> >> hull
> >>> flex will degrade the connection between the cylinder and
> >> bulkhead/transom.
> >>> Perhaps use a FG cylinder thin enough to flex with the hull?
> >>>
> >>> Oh great sages of Albergdom, please opine. Any merit, or just another
> >> Krazy
> >>> Kingsland Kaper.
> >>>
> >>> All the best,
> >>>
> >>> Roger
> >>>
> >>> Roger Kingsland
> >>> Chief Boat Boy, Rubber/Scraper, Thinker of Odd Ideas and Check Writer
> >>> Alberg 30 #148, PERFECT intentions
> >>> N40-33.92, W79-51.25
> >>>
> >>> "You don't have to think outside of the box, but it doesn't hurt to
> > peek
> >>> over the edge once in a while."
> >>> Leonardo Da Vinci (or somebody like that)
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Andrew M Shaw" <andymshaw at juno.com>
> >>> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:31 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Gordon,
> >>>> I'll run down to the boat and take a look for you.
> >> Wanted
> >>>> to see about placement of my new propane tank anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>> Andy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:24:01 -0500 Gordon Laco
> > <mainstay at csolve.net>
> >>>> writes:
> >>>>> No problem - but I will back on mine before then - I was hoping
> > to
> >>>>> order a
> >>>>> new traveller today so that it would come before I went away.
> > Can't
> >>>>> wait to
> >>>>> get on the water. We took the cover off on Friday, a sure way to
> >>>>> make it
> >>>>> snow one more time!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gord
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Gord,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you sir. If you can hold off until the end of the week.
> > It
> >>>>> is raining
> >>>>>> here, better than snow off course. We will be working on the
> > boat
> >>>>> at that
> >>>>>> time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stephen
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> >>>>>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon
> >>>>> Laco
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 4:18 PM
> >>>>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Travellers...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi there -
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's an easy one... 14' aft, 12' forward.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now will you tell me how long my traveller is? ;)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gord
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Gord,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Question, what was the draft on the ship used in Master and
> >>>>> Commander?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Stephen
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>
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