[Public-list] Re: Public-list Digest, Vol 365, Issue 1
Bill Brink
bill.brinks at sbcglobal.net
Sat May 7 20:36:53 PDT 2005
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Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 9:00 AM
Subject: Public-list Digest, Vol 365, Issue 1
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Deck Beam Repair Question - What is the load (Don Campbell)
> 2. A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C (Bob Crinion)
> 3. Re: A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C (Dave Terrell)
> 4. RE: Deck Beam Repair on #461 (Mike Lehman)
> 5. RE: A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C (Mike Lehman)
> 6. Re: Deck Beam Repair on #461 (Don Campbell)
> 7. Re: Re: Polar diagrams (Roger L Kingsland)
> 8. Re: Deck Beam Repair on #461 (George Dinwiddie)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 11:48:56 -0400
> From: Don Campbell <dk.campbell at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair Question - What is the
> load
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Message-ID: <427B91E7.8DF2AE8B at sympatico.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> Some of you may remember that the Aussies had an America's Cup boat
break up
> and sink on the West Coast about 11 years ago now, during the Louis
Vuitton
> races. The boat broke in two amidships and sank in less than 3 minutes.
Sailing
> World did a story on that sinking and as I recall, the loading on that
hull was
> calculated using the moments of the boat length.
> What most of us tend to forget is that the forces must balance and the
> resultant is 0. We really have a big, inverted "w" effect on a boat with
the
> deck beam pushing up, mast pushing down, stays pulling up, and boat hull
holding
> down. Thus whatever force is downward on the mast and upward by the deck
beam,
> or upward on the stay and downward by the hull must be equal and
opposite. The
> principles of leverage enter the picture because the stays are not at the
base
> of the mast . Thus the pull, particularly from the fore and aft stays must
also
> include the moment of the distance along the deck from the mast to the
> chainplate. The forestay tension is multiplied by 10.5 feet and the
backstay
> tension is multiplied by19 feet to determine the force on the hull and
hence the
> deck beam. Similarly, sidestay tension is multiplied by 4 feet.
> I have the feeling that the force to multiply by 4 as suggested
earlier in
> this chain is much larger than you have determined thus far.
> Sailing World calculated the force at over 500,000 lbs on the Aussie
hull
> when she broke when fore and aftstay tension was at 20,000 lbs and thus
mast
> compression due to fore and aftstays only, was 40,000 lbs. (Sailing World
May
> 1995). Weather conditions at the time were average windspeed at 15.89
knots,
> gusts to 21 knots and waves just over 5 feet. Three other boats were
damaged in
> the same conditions: Stars and Stripes lost her mainsail, Mighty Mary
cracked
> her forward ring frame and delaminated her hull and the French boat lost
her
> mast when a spreader endfitting failed.
> It would appear as if the calculated compression on the mast is the
> arithmetic sum of the tension in all stays. Thus if all stays average 1200
lbs,
> that would get to 9600 lbs of mast compression before shock loading. A
factor of
> 4 gets to required support of 38,000 lbs without consideration for the
span
> underneath without support. With consideration for shock loading and
unsupported
> moment on the deck beam, 50,000 lbs does not seem unreasonable. Rankin's
> reinforcement has not failed yet, so far as we know.
> As an aside, I have never seen any advantage to having a rig so tight
it
> forced the mast through the deck. I have been much more a proponent of
some of
> the dinghy rigs that have totally relaxed rigging and that then develop
sail
> shape and change rake with the controls available on the boat. While
dinghies
> can bend masts, not us! Pointing ability while in the speed groove is
something
> we all need to tune for our own boat because of the wide variability in
control
> equipment.
> What we do to hull to deck joints and chainplate knees is another
whole
> story if we reconsider the effect of the moments on aluminum deck rivets
and
> 1/4" bolts.
> Don # 528
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:54:08 -0300
> From: Bob Crinion <bob at fox.nstn.ca>
> Subject: [Public-list] A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C
> To: Alberg30 <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Message-ID: <40adti$1qfqb5 at ip04.eastlink.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi All,
>
> What is the difference between Champion spark plug RJ8C and Champion RJ12C
>
> If you look at NGK plugs the BR6S cross references to the Champion RJ8C
and
> RJ12C.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
> A30 #560
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:12:02 -0400
> From: "Dave Terrell" <DTERRELL at message.nmc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C
> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Message-ID: <s27b5f1a.054 at N6.NMC.EDU>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> I understand that 12s burn hotter - so the A4 likes them better, performs
better.
>
> >>> bob at fox.nstn.ca 05/06/05 11:54 AM >>>
> Hi All,
>
> What is the difference between Champion spark plug RJ8C and Champion RJ12C
>
> If you look at NGK plugs the BR6S cross references to the Champion RJ8C
and
> RJ12C.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
> A30 #560
> _______________________________________________
> Public-list mailing list
> Public-list at alberg30.org
> http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:50:08 -0400
> From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair on #461
> To: public-list at alberg30.org
> Message-ID: <BAY9-F152334DDAE28928119DAA1B71B0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Patty,
>
> You boat has a liner and does not have a exposed wooden beam. The beam in
> your boat is actually an aluminim box beam embedded in the deck line. The
> repair by having the aluminum plates to sister the beam are only for the
> wooden beams found on the older boats. I hope that clears it up. Then on
to
> how to fix your problem remains a mystery to us. Maybe someone else has
some
> ideas.
>
>
>
> Mike Lehman
> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Timbuktu5555 at webtv.net (Patty J)
> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> To: Public-list at alberg30.org
> Subject: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair on #461
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:09:45 -0500
>
> About a year ago I mentioned that I had some mast compression problems
> on #461 and was told the aluminum beams would not work on my boat. Why
> is this? My boat repair man would ally like to reinforce with those
> beams as soon as possible if it is possible.
>
> Patty
> Timbuktu #461
>
> _______________________________________________
> Public-list mailing list
> Public-list at alberg30.org
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:55:49 -0400
> From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [Public-list] A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C
> To: public-list at alberg30.org
> Message-ID: <BAY9-F8D2DAF64C991D7AD705C8B71B0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> go to http://www.championsparkplugs.com/sparkplug411.asp and click on
> 'Manfucacture's Numbering System" at the left bottom of the page. This
will
> bring up a chart showing you how the numbering systm is devised. The "8"
or
> "12" refers to both the application and the heat range. The higher numbers
> are hotter plugs.
>
>
>
> Mike Lehman
> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Bob Crinion <bob at fox.nstn.ca>
> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> To: Alberg30 <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Subject: [Public-list] A4 Spark plugs RJ8C versus RJ12C
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:54:08 -0300
>
> Hi All,
>
> What is the difference between Champion spark plug RJ8C and Champion RJ12C
>
> If you look at NGK plugs the BR6S cross references to the Champion RJ8C
and
> RJ12C.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
> A30 #560
> _______________________________________________
> Public-list mailing list
> Public-list at alberg30.org
> http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:05:48 -0400
> From: Don Campbell <dk.campbell at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair on #461
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Message-ID: <427BB1FC.4D7C3B02 at sympatico.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> There is a balsa cored deck under the mast step above the aluminum deck
beam
> which has probably sagged due to mast compression. Take the mast step off.
Cut
> off the deck top ( just the one layer on top) under the mast step and
sort out
> that problem with thickened epoxy, relace the deck piece, the mast step,
restep
> mast and keep on sailing.
> Don #528
>
> Mike Lehman wrote:
>
> > Patty,
> >
> > You boat has a liner and does not have a exposed wooden beam. The beam
in
> > your boat is actually an aluminim box beam embedded in the deck line.
The
> > repair by having the aluminum plates to sister the beam are only for the
> > wooden beams found on the older boats. I hope that clears it up. Then on
to
> > how to fix your problem remains a mystery to us. Maybe someone else has
some
> > ideas.
> >
> > Mike Lehman
> > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: Timbuktu5555 at webtv.net (Patty J)
> > Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<public-list at alberg30.org>
> > To: Public-list at alberg30.org
> > Subject: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair on #461
> > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:09:45 -0500
> >
> > About a year ago I mentioned that I had some mast compression problems
> > on #461 and was told the aluminum beams would not work on my boat. Why
> > is this? My boat repair man would ally like to reinforce with those
> > beams as soon as possible if it is possible.
> >
> > Patty
> > Timbuktu #461
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-list mailing list
> > Public-list at alberg30.org
> > http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-list mailing list
> > Public-list at alberg30.org
> > http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:55:16 -0400
> From: "Roger L Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Re: Polar diagrams
> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Message-ID: <009c01c5526d$24d1a880$9c00a8c0 at office.ksba>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I have posted some polar diagrams on this site (click on "Hull lines &
> specs"). Don't recall if they show different sail combinations.
>
> http://home.att.net/~jinnii/roger/perfect/pi_designs.html
> Roger Kingsland
> Managing Partner
> KSBA Architects
> N40°- 27.83' W79°- 57.99'
>
> (412) 252-1500 x101 office
> (412) 779-5101 cell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <5thseason at canada.com>
> To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Re: Polar diagrams
>
>
> > On Thu, 05 May 2005 12:58:04 +0000
> > (America/Los_Angeles), 5thseason at canada.com wrote:
> > Sorry for the 2 blanks, I was trying to compose an
> > E-mail.
> >
> > Here is that E-mail request.
> > Does anyone have polar diagrams for the sails on a 30.
> > I need info on a 150% Genoa and a 170% sail, any help
> > would be appreciated.
> > John Boor
> > MAHSEER #380
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Public-list mailing list
> > > Public-list at alberg30.org
> > > http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-list mailing list
> > Public-list at alberg30.org
> > http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:02:40 -0400
> From: George Dinwiddie <gdinwiddie at alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair on #461
> To: dk.campbell at sympatico.ca, Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Message-ID: <427BE980.1070809 at alberg30.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Joe Tokarz wrote up his experiences with this. See
> http://www.alberg30.org/maintenance/HullDeck/MastStepDeckRepairs/
>
> It's also possible that the bulkhead, itself, has sunk. This can be due
> to being cut undersize to start with, or due to the molded pan in the
> boat sagging. First check to see if there's a dimple in the deck behind
> the mast step.
>
> - George
>
> Don Campbell wrote:
> > There is a balsa cored deck under the mast step above the aluminum deck
beam
> > which has probably sagged due to mast compression. Take the mast step
off. Cut
> > off the deck top ( just the one layer on top) under the mast step and
sort out
> > that problem with thickened epoxy, relace the deck piece, the mast
step, restep
> > mast and keep on sailing.
> > Don #528
> >
> > Mike Lehman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Patty,
> >>
> >>You boat has a liner and does not have a exposed wooden beam. The beam
in
> >>your boat is actually an aluminim box beam embedded in the deck line.
The
> >>repair by having the aluminum plates to sister the beam are only for the
> >>wooden beams found on the older boats. I hope that clears it up. Then on
to
> >>how to fix your problem remains a mystery to us. Maybe someone else has
some
> >>ideas.
> >>
> >>Mike Lehman
> >>~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >>
> >>----Original Message Follows----
> >>From: Timbuktu5555 at webtv.net (Patty J)
> >>Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<public-list at alberg30.org>
> >>To: Public-list at alberg30.org
> >>Subject: [Public-list] Deck Beam Repair on #461
> >>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:09:45 -0500
> >>
> >>About a year ago I mentioned that I had some mast compression problems
> >>on #461 and was told the aluminum beams would not work on my boat. Why
> >>is this? My boat repair man would ally like to reinforce with those
> >>beams as soon as possible if it is possible.
> >>
> >>Patty
> >>Timbuktu #461
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Public-list mailing list
> >>Public-list at alberg30.org
> >>http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Public-list mailing list
> >>Public-list at alberg30.org
> >>http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-list mailing list
> > Public-list at alberg30.org
> > http://alberg30.org/mailman/listinfo/public-list
> >
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
> I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie at alberg30.org
> So many I loved were not yet dead, http://www.Alberg30.org
> So many I love were not yet born.
> 'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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