[Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion

Mike Lehman sail_505 at hotmail.com
Fri Sep 30 08:52:01 PDT 2005


"This brings up an interesting question...are we going to start having
equipment inspection at our regattas? Talk about making work for people..."

We do not intend, nor do we want to have inspections, but we will need to 
statisfy any one-design protests to detemine if there is any violation of 
the class one-design rules - that may require an inspection of the vessel 
being protested. We currently measure all new racing sails for compliance.

The rules committee will take this under advisement and may seek the advice 
of the Long Range Planning Committee; the membership at large will need to 
approve any one-design rule modification. If it is determined that outboard 
motors are not legal then you may not race in the A30 class. However, if it 
is determined  that outboards are legal, provided you do not remove the 
original engine from the boat [working or not], then the boat does comply 
with one-design rules and you may leagally race in the A30 fleet. As you can 
see, by this example, there are many things to consider.





Mike Lehman
~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~




----Original Message Follows----
From: "J Bergquist" <JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com>
Reply-To: j at ship.saic.com,Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all 
<public-list at alberg30.org>
To: "'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:59:44 -0400

Don-

Again, interesting observations.

I did not intend ask to place the weight wherever it will fit well. If I
came across as saying that, I apologize. I intended to ask for some
guidelines (rules) about where I could place the weight (just, as I said, is
stipulated in other class rules where boats of differing hull weights are
competing against each other).

This brings up an interesting question...are we going to start having
equipment inspection at our regattas? Talk about making work for people...

I am in favor of a level playing field. I want to race - and win - based on
my skills, not based on any advantage I might gain by modifying my boat in a
way that others could not do. I also happen to believe that can be achieved
without sacrificing the option of an outboard. As I mentioned the problem of
aging gasoline powered inboard engines is not one that is going to go away.
These engines are not getting younger. There are a lot of owners out there
with engine problems. More and more owners are going to have trouble with
their motors as the boats get older. There is no supplier of NEW gasoline
inboard engines for our boats that I am aware of. So the options if you want
a new motor are a diesel, a rebuilt 20-year-old motor, an electric, or an
outboard. Are there any other options I am missing? Maybe we could install
boilers and steam turbines... I did think of gas turbines but threw that
idea out because I couldn't find a credible supplier of one in the needed
size range. Reciprocating steam or nuclear would just be flat ridiculous. I
have considered fuel cells, but have yet to find a vendor. Free piston
Stirling cycle engines are not cost effective. Perhaps I could look for a
marine wankel engine... Maybe something out of an RX-7. But
seriously...there are only a couple of credible options, and the outboard
is, to me and many others, a good one.

Say what you will about outboards. We can agree to disagree if you want, but
I feel and I think there are a lot of others who agree that an outboard is a
very good option for a lot of us. Yes it means we need to be careful and
responsible in operation, but in many ways it makes a whole lot of sense
given the way that we use our boats. I think that it will make the class
stronger if we allow people this option for repowering. For me, it will
allow me to save a lot of money, which makes a tremendous difference.

Now you can say to me if I want to save money I should take up another
hobby, and that's probably right. But at the end of the day, most owners
have a finite amount of cash to invest in their boats (if anybody has
infinite cash, then please let me know! I could use some!) If I can devote
more of that finite cash to sails and less to engines, while still
maintaining a safe operating program, then I am going to do it.

I am not interested in sailing moths or other development classes. The 5o5
class is not like that, and neither is the Alberg 30. If I wanted to sail
moths I would buy one. I have no interest in foil-supported sailing, beyond
pure academic curiosity. I only brought up the 5o5 in this context because I
see it as a parallel boat and class association of similar (actually
greater) age which has dealt with a similar problem (boats of differing
weight). And I happen to think that the reason for the longevity of both
boats (classes) is the wonderful class associations (and the people inside
them) to which the designs are lucky enough to be attached.

 >From my perspective, it may be that an outboard is my only option, simply
because of price. If I have to choose between an inboard diesel and a new
jib or dodger, I'd rather get the jib or dodger. If this means that I need
to be more careful and responsible in my usage patterns for the boat, I have
no problem with that. I would really like to avoid making my boat illegal
for racing, and to be honest, I don't think that it needs to be made
illegal, because I think that the boats can be made sufficiently equivalent
with corrected weight.

I seriously doubt that the absence of a prop in the aperture actually
decreases the drag coefficient by any measurable percentage. Come on. The
flow is fully developed at the aperture. And any competent racer lines the
prop up with the keel so it's in line behind the keel anyway. Do you really
think there is a measurable drag difference between a lined up prop 2"
behind the keel and no prop? Maybe so, but I doubt it.

I told Tim Williams this morning that there's much more difference between
my results and Towney's than a couple of hundred pounds displacement and a
missing propeller. The winners win chiefly because they're good sailors, not
because their equipment is advantageous. At least, that's my opinion.

Kind regards,

JB

-----Original Message-----
From: dk.campbell at sympatico.ca [mailto:dk.campbell at sympatico.ca]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 9:28 AM
To: j at ship.saic.com; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion

The Y-Flyer has had the same difficulty with weight on new hulls.  I have
2416
in the barn. This was originally a wooden boat at 500 lbs and with glass
hulls,
they could be made lighter. Weights were added to the glass hulls but all on
the
centere line and low, so there is an increased stability with the glass hull
compared to the wooden one. Woodys are competative in light air when all are
flat, but to be really in the top, one  needs a glass hull these days. There
has
been a great volume of discussion among Y Flyer rules committees on this
point
too over the years.
     What you are asking is to change the shape of the drag and waterline on
the
AL30 if you can remove both the motor from the hull and the prop from the
water
using an outboard, and place the weight wherever it will fit well. Changing
the
requirement of a prop in the water at all times is beyond one design limits
for
most purists. The dinghys have at least maintained the waterline and drag
co-efficient a constant.
     Where there are open design classes like the Moth, the hulls have 
become
more narrow with less surface on the water,  and lighter, and have now gone
to
hydrofoils so the hull is not in the water. The world champ sailed all but a
few
yards of the last Worlds on the hydrofoils. Not bad for a one man boat. If
you
want speed and design challenges, there are places for that.
     Most one-design classes want the first and last hull to be on a level
laying
field and safe. In my experience, outboards on sailing vessels (which then
have
2 steering mechanisms) add considerable conditions to safety at the helm. I
was
on a C&C 24 last weekend where the motor was not locked parallel to the
length
and the skipper nearly hit boats because he could not reach the motor to
correct
the steerage that it gave to override the tiller. The Alberg 22, with the
motor
in the lazarette is not an easily steered hull under power, because the prop
wash is not over the rudder. The rudder is levered well ahead of that and
turning is really slow in a wide arc.
     While outboards are a choice, and any owner has choices for his own
boat, he
also needs to be aware of how he will devalue the hull with the choices he
makes. Reducing the racing capability or the safety are but two of the
choices
we all make every day. We have seen on ths site laminated sails for sale out
of
NewYork that did not sell at their perceived value  because they were of no
use
to most of us. Experience is a great teacher and most of us have paid a
price
for some of it. Hopefully others will at least get enough material from our
experience to pay their own price for their choices.
Don

#528


J Bergquist wrote:

 > Mike-
 >
 > Great. Thanks for the effort to clarify the rules. That would be great.
 >
 > >From my perspective, it would seem like a reasonable thing to install
 > equivalent corrector weight which would bring the boat back to the same
 > displacement as other boats. For example, I could install additional
 > batteries.
 >
 > This is a fairly standard practice in other one-design fleets. For
example,
 > 5o5's can be built with modern construction techniques such that they are
20
 > KG or more underweight (the boat only weighs 128 kg total). That's almost
 > 20% of the total boat weight. This is allowed under the class rules, but
 > offending boats must install lead corrector weights at specified 
locations
 > to compensate for the fact that their boats are lighter. To me, this 
seems
 > like a reasonable solution. And generally, I am a fan of allowing people
the
 > freedom to do what they want with their boats, so long as a level playing
 > field is maintained.
 >
 > I plan to be at the rendezvous on Saturday, so we could discuss this 
issue
 > there if you want.
 >
 > Then again, maybe we should just have a few beers and catch up since I
 > haven't seen you since the O's game last year!
 >
 > Or maybe you can convince me of what kind of diesel I should install...
 >
 > ;-)
 >
 > Kind regards,
 >
 > J
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
 > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lehman
 > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 7:22 AM
 > To: public-list at alberg30.org
 > Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
discussion
 >
 > J
 >
 > I am on the rules committee. There isn't, as far as I know, a hard
-and-fast
 >
 > rule regarding engines specifically. I will call a meeting of the rules
 > committee so we can discuss the matter and see if we can come to s a
 > resolution and perhaps an amendment to the rules which will cover this
 > subject clearly. The membership, at the annual dinner in January, has to
 > vote on any bylaw or rules changes.
 >
 > Mike Lehman
 > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: "J Bergquist" <JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com>
 > Reply-To: j at ship.saic.com,Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
 > <public-list at alberg30.org>
 > To: "'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
 > Subject: RE: [Public-list] re:  "let me race?"was another outboard
 > discussion
 > Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 07:52:00 -0400
 >
 > Michael-
 >
 > Wait a minute, this is not a fair answer. I am asking the question IN
 > ADVANCE of making any changes to my boat. I would expect the class
 > association (or any individual) to return the favor and give me an answer
IN
 > ADVANCE about the class rules rather than wait until AFTER I start 
racing.
 >
 > This answer below would be analogous to me walking into the police 
station
 > and enquiring about the speed limit. If the response was "well, it's not
 > actually documented in terms of hard numbers, but don't be surprised if 
we
 > slap you with a $150 fine if you go too fast." That would be like what
 > you're saying below.
 >
 > I am being open and honest about asking questions about how changing my
boat
 > will affect my ability to race one design. I feel that the reasonable
thing
 > for the association to do would be to give me an answer which will stick
 > after I start racing. Changing the rules after the game begins is
definitely
 > not sportsmanlike!
 >
 > I don't think your e-mail below is meant to represent the association.
 > Nevertheless, I think that it's only fair to expect an advance answer to
my
 > question. Because otherwise, I might find out after I've spent a pile of
 > money that I can't race my boat. Now that would be a major 
disappointment!
 >
 > J
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
 > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of
 > dickdurk at atlanticbb.net
 > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:22 PM
 > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
 > Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
discussion
 >
 >  >What is the wisdom of the "old salts"?
 >
 > Don't know about that "old salt" business, I say; race
 > away, but if you start winning, expect protest.
 >
 > Part Two-Rules And Regulations
 >    Section 18 Standard equipment shall include all
 > equipment normally supplied with the standard A-30 as of
 > Nov. 1. 1964...
 > and
 >    Section 4 All hulls shall conform to the design and
 > specification of the A-30 built by the Whitby Boat Works
 > and shall remain unchanged so as to preserve the
 > one-design aspect of the Class....
 > and
 >    Section 3 ...The Rules Committee shall have the
 >    power to declare a boat ineligible.
 >
 > Was it Mark Twain who said; "Regulations are the refuge of
 > scoundrels"? :)
 >
 > Michael Grosh
 > #220
 >
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