[Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion

J Bergquist JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com
Fri Sep 30 09:22:48 PDT 2005


John, 

Repowering at 1/4 of the cost, space, and weight and still meeting
operational requirements sounds like the sublime side of the fence to me. 

The part of the one-design concept I don't get is why some people think that
rules should be set in stone and will never need to change or be clarified
over time. When our rules were written, our boats were young, and none of
them had failing engines. I guess nobody anticipated the need for a rule
about outboards. In the same way, the framers of the American Constitution
had no idea that they should include laws about software patents, genetic
engineering and other kinds of modern technological (and legal) issues. So
they had the foresight to create a framework which allows the law to live
with the times. I'm no lawyer, but it seems like that is a pretty sensible
way to operate. In the same way, most class associations recognize in their
rules that the advancement of technology is inevitable and it will change
the way that boats, sails, and spars are built and raced. In this way, they
allow for clarification and modification of the class rules over time
through their by-laws. In my understanding, our by-laws also have such a
provision. 

We are debating a rules change here, it must be voted on before it can be
made part of our rules. Technology advances over time. In order for one
design class rules and the boats they describe to remain relevant and alive,
they must be able to change with the times as well. I have given an example
below of another class with which I am familiar which has allowed changes in
the rules over time and has reaped great benefit in terms of participation
numbers from that (175 boats at this year's 5o5 world championship...not bad
for a 50 year old design). 

I am advocating that the rules committee consider this change. If you have a
problem with this particular rules change, then you can voice your opinion
to the rules committee as well. Ultimately, the decision will be put to a
vote of the membership. You get one, and I get one, and every other dues
paying member of the class gets one. So I guess then we'll see what the
owners want...if the change even gets proposed. 

"Don't mess with the boat." God, I wish I had that as an option!!! I'd go
sailing to the rendezvous this weekend instead of hauling her out of the
water and going to the rendezvous by car!

J Bergquist

-----Original Message-----
From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
[mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of John Birch
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:03 AM
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion

"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step" - Napoleon Bonaparte 
during his retreat from Moscow

Don't mess with the Boat guys - what part of the one-design concept don't we

get ?!

Just a suggestion.

Thanks.

Cheers,

John

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion


> "This brings up an interesting question...are we going to start having
> equipment inspection at our regattas? Talk about making work for 
> people..."
>
> We do not intend, nor do we want to have inspections, but we will need to 
> statisfy any one-design protests to detemine if there is any violation of 
> the class one-design rules - that may require an inspection of the vessel 
> being protested. We currently measure all new racing sails for compliance.
>
> The rules committee will take this under advisement and may seek the 
> advice of the Long Range Planning Committee; the membership at large will 
> need to approve any one-design rule modification. If it is determined that

> outboard motors are not legal then you may not race in the A30 class. 
> However, if it is determined  that outboards are legal, provided you do 
> not remove the original engine from the boat [working or not], then the 
> boat does comply with one-design rules and you may leagally race in the 
> A30 fleet. As you can see, by this example, there are many things to 
> consider.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Lehman
> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "J Bergquist" <JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com>
> Reply-To: j at ship.saic.com,Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all 
> <public-list at alberg30.org>
> To: "'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard 
> discussion
> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:59:44 -0400
>
> Don-
>
> Again, interesting observations.
>
> I did not intend ask to place the weight wherever it will fit well. If I
> came across as saying that, I apologize. I intended to ask for some
> guidelines (rules) about where I could place the weight (just, as I said, 
> is
> stipulated in other class rules where boats of differing hull weights are
> competing against each other).
>
> This brings up an interesting question...are we going to start having
> equipment inspection at our regattas? Talk about making work for people...
>
> I am in favor of a level playing field. I want to race - and win - based 
> on
> my skills, not based on any advantage I might gain by modifying my boat in

> a
> way that others could not do. I also happen to believe that can be 
> achieved
> without sacrificing the option of an outboard. As I mentioned the problem 
> of
> aging gasoline powered inboard engines is not one that is going to go 
> away.
> These engines are not getting younger. There are a lot of owners out there
> with engine problems. More and more owners are going to have trouble with
> their motors as the boats get older. There is no supplier of NEW gasoline
> inboard engines for our boats that I am aware of. So the options if you 
> want
> a new motor are a diesel, a rebuilt 20-year-old motor, an electric, or an
> outboard. Are there any other options I am missing? Maybe we could install
> boilers and steam turbines... I did think of gas turbines but threw that
> idea out because I couldn't find a credible supplier of one in the needed
> size range. Reciprocating steam or nuclear would just be flat ridiculous. 
> I
> have considered fuel cells, but have yet to find a vendor. Free piston
> Stirling cycle engines are not cost effective. Perhaps I could look for a
> marine wankel engine... Maybe something out of an RX-7. But
> seriously...there are only a couple of credible options, and the outboard
> is, to me and many others, a good one.
>
> Say what you will about outboards. We can agree to disagree if you want, 
> but
> I feel and I think there are a lot of others who agree that an outboard is

> a
> very good option for a lot of us. Yes it means we need to be careful and
> responsible in operation, but in many ways it makes a whole lot of sense
> given the way that we use our boats. I think that it will make the class
> stronger if we allow people this option for repowering. For me, it will
> allow me to save a lot of money, which makes a tremendous difference.
>
> Now you can say to me if I want to save money I should take up another
> hobby, and that's probably right. But at the end of the day, most owners
> have a finite amount of cash to invest in their boats (if anybody has
> infinite cash, then please let me know! I could use some!) If I can devote
> more of that finite cash to sails and less to engines, while still
> maintaining a safe operating program, then I am going to do it.
>
> I am not interested in sailing moths or other development classes. The 5o5
> class is not like that, and neither is the Alberg 30. If I wanted to sail
> moths I would buy one. I have no interest in foil-supported sailing, 
> beyond
> pure academic curiosity. I only brought up the 5o5 in this context because

> I
> see it as a parallel boat and class association of similar (actually
> greater) age which has dealt with a similar problem (boats of differing
> weight). And I happen to think that the reason for the longevity of both
> boats (classes) is the wonderful class associations (and the people inside
> them) to which the designs are lucky enough to be attached.
>
> >From my perspective, it may be that an outboard is my only option, simply
> because of price. If I have to choose between an inboard diesel and a new
> jib or dodger, I'd rather get the jib or dodger. If this means that I need
> to be more careful and responsible in my usage patterns for the boat, I 
> have
> no problem with that. I would really like to avoid making my boat illegal
> for racing, and to be honest, I don't think that it needs to be made
> illegal, because I think that the boats can be made sufficiently 
> equivalent
> with corrected weight.
>
> I seriously doubt that the absence of a prop in the aperture actually
> decreases the drag coefficient by any measurable percentage. Come on. The
> flow is fully developed at the aperture. And any competent racer lines the
> prop up with the keel so it's in line behind the keel anyway. Do you 
> really
> think there is a measurable drag difference between a lined up prop 2"
> behind the keel and no prop? Maybe so, but I doubt it.
>
> I told Tim Williams this morning that there's much more difference between
> my results and Towney's than a couple of hundred pounds displacement and a
> missing propeller. The winners win chiefly because they're good sailors, 
> not
> because their equipment is advantageous. At least, that's my opinion.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> JB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dk.campbell at sympatico.ca [mailto:dk.campbell at sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 9:28 AM
> To: j at ship.saic.com; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard 
> discussion
>
> The Y-Flyer has had the same difficulty with weight on new hulls.  I have
> 2416
> in the barn. This was originally a wooden boat at 500 lbs and with glass
> hulls,
> they could be made lighter. Weights were added to the glass hulls but all 
> on
> the
> centere line and low, so there is an increased stability with the glass 
> hull
> compared to the wooden one. Woodys are competative in light air when all 
> are
> flat, but to be really in the top, one  needs a glass hull these days. 
> There
> has
> been a great volume of discussion among Y Flyer rules committees on this
> point
> too over the years.
>     What you are asking is to change the shape of the drag and waterline 
> on
> the
> AL30 if you can remove both the motor from the hull and the prop from the
> water
> using an outboard, and place the weight wherever it will fit well. 
> Changing
> the
> requirement of a prop in the water at all times is beyond one design 
> limits
> for
> most purists. The dinghys have at least maintained the waterline and drag
> co-efficient a constant.
>     Where there are open design classes like the Moth, the hulls have 
> become
> more narrow with less surface on the water,  and lighter, and have now 
> gone
> to
> hydrofoils so the hull is not in the water. The world champ sailed all but

> a
> few
> yards of the last Worlds on the hydrofoils. Not bad for a one man boat. If
> you
> want speed and design challenges, there are places for that.
>     Most one-design classes want the first and last hull to be on a level
> laying
> field and safe. In my experience, outboards on sailing vessels (which then
> have
> 2 steering mechanisms) add considerable conditions to safety at the helm. 
> I
> was
> on a C&C 24 last weekend where the motor was not locked parallel to the
> length
> and the skipper nearly hit boats because he could not reach the motor to
> correct
> the steerage that it gave to override the tiller. The Alberg 22, with the
> motor
> in the lazarette is not an easily steered hull under power, because the 
> prop
> wash is not over the rudder. The rudder is levered well ahead of that and
> turning is really slow in a wide arc.
>     While outboards are a choice, and any owner has choices for his own
> boat, he
> also needs to be aware of how he will devalue the hull with the choices he
> makes. Reducing the racing capability or the safety are but two of the
> choices
> we all make every day. We have seen on ths site laminated sails for sale 
> out
> of
> NewYork that did not sell at their perceived value  because they were of 
> no
> use
> to most of us. Experience is a great teacher and most of us have paid a
> price
> for some of it. Hopefully others will at least get enough material from 
> our
> experience to pay their own price for their choices.
> Don
>
> #528
>
>
> J Bergquist wrote:
>
> > Mike-
> >
> > Great. Thanks for the effort to clarify the rules. That would be great.
> >
> > >From my perspective, it would seem like a reasonable thing to install
> > equivalent corrector weight which would bring the boat back to the same
> > displacement as other boats. For example, I could install additional
> > batteries.
> >
> > This is a fairly standard practice in other one-design fleets. For
> example,
> > 5o5's can be built with modern construction techniques such that they 
> > are
> 20
> > KG or more underweight (the boat only weighs 128 kg total). That's 
> > almost
> > 20% of the total boat weight. This is allowed under the class rules, but
> > offending boats must install lead corrector weights at specified
> locations
> > to compensate for the fact that their boats are lighter. To me, this
> seems
> > like a reasonable solution. And generally, I am a fan of allowing people
> the
> > freedom to do what they want with their boats, so long as a level 
> > playing
> > field is maintained.
> >
> > I plan to be at the rendezvous on Saturday, so we could discuss this
> issue
> > there if you want.
> >
> > Then again, maybe we should just have a few beers and catch up since I
> > haven't seen you since the O's game last year!
> >
> > Or maybe you can convince me of what kind of diesel I should install...
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > J
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lehman
> > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 7:22 AM
> > To: public-list at alberg30.org
> > Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> discussion
> >
> > J
> >
> > I am on the rules committee. There isn't, as far as I know, a hard
> -and-fast
> >
> > rule regarding engines specifically. I will call a meeting of the rules
> > committee so we can discuss the matter and see if we can come to s a
> > resolution and perhaps an amendment to the rules which will cover this
> > subject clearly. The membership, at the annual dinner in January, has to
> > vote on any bylaw or rules changes.
> >
> > Mike Lehman
> > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "J Bergquist" <JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com>
> > Reply-To: j at ship.saic.com,Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > To: "'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > Subject: RE: [Public-list] re:  "let me race?"was another outboard
> > discussion
> > Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 07:52:00 -0400
> >
> > Michael-
> >
> > Wait a minute, this is not a fair answer. I am asking the question IN
> > ADVANCE of making any changes to my boat. I would expect the class
> > association (or any individual) to return the favor and give me an 
> > answer
> IN
> > ADVANCE about the class rules rather than wait until AFTER I start
> racing.
> >
> > This answer below would be analogous to me walking into the police
> station
> > and enquiring about the speed limit. If the response was "well, it's not
> > actually documented in terms of hard numbers, but don't be surprised if
> we
> > slap you with a $150 fine if you go too fast." That would be like what
> > you're saying below.
> >
> > I am being open and honest about asking questions about how changing my
> boat
> > will affect my ability to race one design. I feel that the reasonable
> thing
> > for the association to do would be to give me an answer which will stick
> > after I start racing. Changing the rules after the game begins is
> definitely
> > not sportsmanlike!
> >
> > I don't think your e-mail below is meant to represent the association.
> > Nevertheless, I think that it's only fair to expect an advance answer to
> my
> > question. Because otherwise, I might find out after I've spent a pile of
> > money that I can't race my boat. Now that would be a major
> disappointment!
> >
> > J
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of
> > dickdurk at atlanticbb.net
> > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:22 PM
> > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> discussion
> >
> >  >What is the wisdom of the "old salts"?
> >
> > Don't know about that "old salt" business, I say; race
> > away, but if you start winning, expect protest.
> >
> > Part Two-Rules And Regulations
> >    Section 18 Standard equipment shall include all
> > equipment normally supplied with the standard A-30 as of
> > Nov. 1. 1964...
> > and
> >    Section 4 All hulls shall conform to the design and
> > specification of the A-30 built by the Whitby Boat Works
> > and shall remain unchanged so as to preserve the
> > one-design aspect of the Class....
> > and
> >    Section 3 ...The Rules Committee shall have the
> >    power to declare a boat ineligible.
> >
> > Was it Mark Twain who said; "Regulations are the refuge of
> > scoundrels"? :)
> >
> > Michael Grosh
> > #220
> >
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