[Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion
John Birch
Sunstone at cogeco.ca
Fri Sep 30 09:02:30 PDT 2005
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step" - Napoleon Bonaparte
during his retreat from Moscow
Don't mess with the Boat guys - what part of the one-design concept don't we
get ?!
Just a suggestion.
Thanks.
Cheers,
John
---- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard discussion
> "This brings up an interesting question...are we going to start having
> equipment inspection at our regattas? Talk about making work for
> people..."
>
> We do not intend, nor do we want to have inspections, but we will need to
> statisfy any one-design protests to detemine if there is any violation of
> the class one-design rules - that may require an inspection of the vessel
> being protested. We currently measure all new racing sails for compliance.
>
> The rules committee will take this under advisement and may seek the
> advice of the Long Range Planning Committee; the membership at large will
> need to approve any one-design rule modification. If it is determined that
> outboard motors are not legal then you may not race in the A30 class.
> However, if it is determined that outboards are legal, provided you do
> not remove the original engine from the boat [working or not], then the
> boat does comply with one-design rules and you may leagally race in the
> A30 fleet. As you can see, by this example, there are many things to
> consider.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Lehman
> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "J Bergquist" <JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com>
> Reply-To: j at ship.saic.com,Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at alberg30.org>
> To: "'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> discussion
> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:59:44 -0400
>
> Don-
>
> Again, interesting observations.
>
> I did not intend ask to place the weight wherever it will fit well. If I
> came across as saying that, I apologize. I intended to ask for some
> guidelines (rules) about where I could place the weight (just, as I said,
> is
> stipulated in other class rules where boats of differing hull weights are
> competing against each other).
>
> This brings up an interesting question...are we going to start having
> equipment inspection at our regattas? Talk about making work for people...
>
> I am in favor of a level playing field. I want to race - and win - based
> on
> my skills, not based on any advantage I might gain by modifying my boat in
> a
> way that others could not do. I also happen to believe that can be
> achieved
> without sacrificing the option of an outboard. As I mentioned the problem
> of
> aging gasoline powered inboard engines is not one that is going to go
> away.
> These engines are not getting younger. There are a lot of owners out there
> with engine problems. More and more owners are going to have trouble with
> their motors as the boats get older. There is no supplier of NEW gasoline
> inboard engines for our boats that I am aware of. So the options if you
> want
> a new motor are a diesel, a rebuilt 20-year-old motor, an electric, or an
> outboard. Are there any other options I am missing? Maybe we could install
> boilers and steam turbines... I did think of gas turbines but threw that
> idea out because I couldn't find a credible supplier of one in the needed
> size range. Reciprocating steam or nuclear would just be flat ridiculous.
> I
> have considered fuel cells, but have yet to find a vendor. Free piston
> Stirling cycle engines are not cost effective. Perhaps I could look for a
> marine wankel engine... Maybe something out of an RX-7. But
> seriously...there are only a couple of credible options, and the outboard
> is, to me and many others, a good one.
>
> Say what you will about outboards. We can agree to disagree if you want,
> but
> I feel and I think there are a lot of others who agree that an outboard is
> a
> very good option for a lot of us. Yes it means we need to be careful and
> responsible in operation, but in many ways it makes a whole lot of sense
> given the way that we use our boats. I think that it will make the class
> stronger if we allow people this option for repowering. For me, it will
> allow me to save a lot of money, which makes a tremendous difference.
>
> Now you can say to me if I want to save money I should take up another
> hobby, and that's probably right. But at the end of the day, most owners
> have a finite amount of cash to invest in their boats (if anybody has
> infinite cash, then please let me know! I could use some!) If I can devote
> more of that finite cash to sails and less to engines, while still
> maintaining a safe operating program, then I am going to do it.
>
> I am not interested in sailing moths or other development classes. The 5o5
> class is not like that, and neither is the Alberg 30. If I wanted to sail
> moths I would buy one. I have no interest in foil-supported sailing,
> beyond
> pure academic curiosity. I only brought up the 5o5 in this context because
> I
> see it as a parallel boat and class association of similar (actually
> greater) age which has dealt with a similar problem (boats of differing
> weight). And I happen to think that the reason for the longevity of both
> boats (classes) is the wonderful class associations (and the people inside
> them) to which the designs are lucky enough to be attached.
>
> >From my perspective, it may be that an outboard is my only option, simply
> because of price. If I have to choose between an inboard diesel and a new
> jib or dodger, I'd rather get the jib or dodger. If this means that I need
> to be more careful and responsible in my usage patterns for the boat, I
> have
> no problem with that. I would really like to avoid making my boat illegal
> for racing, and to be honest, I don't think that it needs to be made
> illegal, because I think that the boats can be made sufficiently
> equivalent
> with corrected weight.
>
> I seriously doubt that the absence of a prop in the aperture actually
> decreases the drag coefficient by any measurable percentage. Come on. The
> flow is fully developed at the aperture. And any competent racer lines the
> prop up with the keel so it's in line behind the keel anyway. Do you
> really
> think there is a measurable drag difference between a lined up prop 2"
> behind the keel and no prop? Maybe so, but I doubt it.
>
> I told Tim Williams this morning that there's much more difference between
> my results and Towney's than a couple of hundred pounds displacement and a
> missing propeller. The winners win chiefly because they're good sailors,
> not
> because their equipment is advantageous. At least, that's my opinion.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> JB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dk.campbell at sympatico.ca [mailto:dk.campbell at sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 9:28 AM
> To: j at ship.saic.com; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> discussion
>
> The Y-Flyer has had the same difficulty with weight on new hulls. I have
> 2416
> in the barn. This was originally a wooden boat at 500 lbs and with glass
> hulls,
> they could be made lighter. Weights were added to the glass hulls but all
> on
> the
> centere line and low, so there is an increased stability with the glass
> hull
> compared to the wooden one. Woodys are competative in light air when all
> are
> flat, but to be really in the top, one needs a glass hull these days.
> There
> has
> been a great volume of discussion among Y Flyer rules committees on this
> point
> too over the years.
> What you are asking is to change the shape of the drag and waterline
> on
> the
> AL30 if you can remove both the motor from the hull and the prop from the
> water
> using an outboard, and place the weight wherever it will fit well.
> Changing
> the
> requirement of a prop in the water at all times is beyond one design
> limits
> for
> most purists. The dinghys have at least maintained the waterline and drag
> co-efficient a constant.
> Where there are open design classes like the Moth, the hulls have
> become
> more narrow with less surface on the water, and lighter, and have now
> gone
> to
> hydrofoils so the hull is not in the water. The world champ sailed all but
> a
> few
> yards of the last Worlds on the hydrofoils. Not bad for a one man boat. If
> you
> want speed and design challenges, there are places for that.
> Most one-design classes want the first and last hull to be on a level
> laying
> field and safe. In my experience, outboards on sailing vessels (which then
> have
> 2 steering mechanisms) add considerable conditions to safety at the helm.
> I
> was
> on a C&C 24 last weekend where the motor was not locked parallel to the
> length
> and the skipper nearly hit boats because he could not reach the motor to
> correct
> the steerage that it gave to override the tiller. The Alberg 22, with the
> motor
> in the lazarette is not an easily steered hull under power, because the
> prop
> wash is not over the rudder. The rudder is levered well ahead of that and
> turning is really slow in a wide arc.
> While outboards are a choice, and any owner has choices for his own
> boat, he
> also needs to be aware of how he will devalue the hull with the choices he
> makes. Reducing the racing capability or the safety are but two of the
> choices
> we all make every day. We have seen on ths site laminated sails for sale
> out
> of
> NewYork that did not sell at their perceived value because they were of
> no
> use
> to most of us. Experience is a great teacher and most of us have paid a
> price
> for some of it. Hopefully others will at least get enough material from
> our
> experience to pay their own price for their choices.
> Don
>
> #528
>
>
> J Bergquist wrote:
>
> > Mike-
> >
> > Great. Thanks for the effort to clarify the rules. That would be great.
> >
> > >From my perspective, it would seem like a reasonable thing to install
> > equivalent corrector weight which would bring the boat back to the same
> > displacement as other boats. For example, I could install additional
> > batteries.
> >
> > This is a fairly standard practice in other one-design fleets. For
> example,
> > 5o5's can be built with modern construction techniques such that they
> > are
> 20
> > KG or more underweight (the boat only weighs 128 kg total). That's
> > almost
> > 20% of the total boat weight. This is allowed under the class rules, but
> > offending boats must install lead corrector weights at specified
> locations
> > to compensate for the fact that their boats are lighter. To me, this
> seems
> > like a reasonable solution. And generally, I am a fan of allowing people
> the
> > freedom to do what they want with their boats, so long as a level
> > playing
> > field is maintained.
> >
> > I plan to be at the rendezvous on Saturday, so we could discuss this
> issue
> > there if you want.
> >
> > Then again, maybe we should just have a few beers and catch up since I
> > haven't seen you since the O's game last year!
> >
> > Or maybe you can convince me of what kind of diesel I should install...
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > J
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lehman
> > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 7:22 AM
> > To: public-list at alberg30.org
> > Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> discussion
> >
> > J
> >
> > I am on the rules committee. There isn't, as far as I know, a hard
> -and-fast
> >
> > rule regarding engines specifically. I will call a meeting of the rules
> > committee so we can discuss the matter and see if we can come to s a
> > resolution and perhaps an amendment to the rules which will cover this
> > subject clearly. The membership, at the annual dinner in January, has to
> > vote on any bylaw or rules changes.
> >
> > Mike Lehman
> > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "J Bergquist" <JOHN.R.BERGQUIST at saic.com>
> > Reply-To: j at ship.saic.com,Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > To: "'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > Subject: RE: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> > discussion
> > Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 07:52:00 -0400
> >
> > Michael-
> >
> > Wait a minute, this is not a fair answer. I am asking the question IN
> > ADVANCE of making any changes to my boat. I would expect the class
> > association (or any individual) to return the favor and give me an
> > answer
> IN
> > ADVANCE about the class rules rather than wait until AFTER I start
> racing.
> >
> > This answer below would be analogous to me walking into the police
> station
> > and enquiring about the speed limit. If the response was "well, it's not
> > actually documented in terms of hard numbers, but don't be surprised if
> we
> > slap you with a $150 fine if you go too fast." That would be like what
> > you're saying below.
> >
> > I am being open and honest about asking questions about how changing my
> boat
> > will affect my ability to race one design. I feel that the reasonable
> thing
> > for the association to do would be to give me an answer which will stick
> > after I start racing. Changing the rules after the game begins is
> definitely
> > not sportsmanlike!
> >
> > I don't think your e-mail below is meant to represent the association.
> > Nevertheless, I think that it's only fair to expect an advance answer to
> my
> > question. Because otherwise, I might find out after I've spent a pile of
> > money that I can't race my boat. Now that would be a major
> disappointment!
> >
> > J
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of
> > dickdurk at atlanticbb.net
> > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:22 PM
> > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] re: "let me race?"was another outboard
> discussion
> >
> > >What is the wisdom of the "old salts"?
> >
> > Don't know about that "old salt" business, I say; race
> > away, but if you start winning, expect protest.
> >
> > Part Two-Rules And Regulations
> > Section 18 Standard equipment shall include all
> > equipment normally supplied with the standard A-30 as of
> > Nov. 1. 1964...
> > and
> > Section 4 All hulls shall conform to the design and
> > specification of the A-30 built by the Whitby Boat Works
> > and shall remain unchanged so as to preserve the
> > one-design aspect of the Class....
> > and
> > Section 3 ...The Rules Committee shall have the
> > power to declare a boat ineligible.
> >
> > Was it Mark Twain who said; "Regulations are the refuge of
> > scoundrels"? :)
> >
> > Michael Grosh
> > #220
> >
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