[Public-List] Conversion of water tank to holding tank

Meinhold, Michael J. MICHAEL.J.MEINHOLD at saic.com
Tue Oct 25 12:49:10 PDT 2011 

All that is meant to say to Roger - don't get rid of the track!
Try it with the working jib for tacking up the Allegheny in a stiff breeze!

Mike
Rinn Duin #272 aka Canada I on Saturday in the Rankin Cup!



-----Original Message-----
From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Laco
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:42 PM
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Conversion of water tank to holding tank

That all makes perfect sense Mike.

Gord




On 25/10/11 3:34 PM, "Meinhold, Michael J." <MICHAEL.J.MEINHOLD at saic.com>
wrote:

> I had a Chesapeake-legal working jib made and it can only be sheeted
> close-hauled properly from the inside track.
> It has  high clew and the clew is forward of the mast.
> 
> While I have not done rigorous measurements of tacking angles, I believe it is
> the best upwind head sail for single-handing in 18 kts or higher. It gives me
> better speed made good upwind than my 175% #1
> I don't currently have #2, so I use the working jib in 15 or higher
> single-handing.
> If you have some crew to sit on the weather rail you can move these numbers up
> of course.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Laco
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:40 PM
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Conversion of water tank to holding tank
> 
> Yes, but....
> 
> The extra pointing is only worth it if there is enough wind to drive the
> yacht fast enough, that you have leeway under control.  In our boats I'd say
> you need 20kts of wind to make the tighter sheeting worth while.  Pointing
> higher while sailing at low speed doesn't get you upwind faster because the
> boat makes so much more leeway.  At higher boatspeeds (say 6kts and more)
> leeway won't be so bad and you can make profitable use of the higher
> pointing.
> 
> Other boats (like TOUCH WOOD, the Folkboat) quite happily clamber to
> windward tacking through better than 80 degrees between tacks with inside
> sheeting; but not SURPRISE unless there was enough air to drive her.
> 
> This is an issue that we used to patiently explain to keen young volunteers
> aboard HMS BEE, the historic sailing warship I used to be responsible for.
> She's a schooner, so by hauling in everything and sheeting her great
> overlaping foresail one could jam her up so she could point almost like a
> yacht... But the leeway was utterly heartbreaking.  It was better in most
> circumstances to sail faster on a lower course making less leeway...with a
> course made good that was much better.
> 
> In SURPRISE We only ever used those inside tracks for a spinnaker staysail.
> That's sail's usefulness is doubtful, so removing the tracks and grinding
> their pads away is in the works for our boat.   We find we get enough
> improvement using a forward position on the regular tracks that I don't
> covet more using the inner ones.
> 
> Gord #426 SURPRISE
> 
> 
> On 25/10/11 2:21 PM, "Roger L. Kingsland" <r.kingsland at ksba.com> wrote:
> 
>> Gord,
>> 
>> I noticed, when close hauled, the working jib can be sheeted thru the inner
>> traveler (inside the stays)in the middle of the deck (and I thought they
>> were there just so I could stub my toes).  Would that sail configuration
>> allow better pointing angles and better "velocity made good"?
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> Roger Kingsland, Managing Partner
>> 
>> Kingsland Scott Bauer Associates
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>    KSBA 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> 
>> Architects/Planners/InteriorDesigners/ProjectManagers
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 3441 Butler Street
>> 
>> Pittsburgh, PA 15201
>> 
>> N 40° 27.8344'  W79° 57.9831'
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 412-252-1500 ext.101
>> 
>> 412-779-5101 cell
>> 
>> 412-252-1510 fax
>> 
>> r.kingsland at ksba.com
>> 
>> www.ksba.com
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Laco
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:11 PM
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Conversion of water tank to holding tank
>> 
>> Hi Roger - the navigable part was only about 60' in places....
>> 
>> 
>> On 25/10/11 2:07 PM, "Roger L. Kingsland" <r.kingsland at ksba.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Good stuff Gord.  Minnicog sounds about as wide as my Allegheny River.
>>> 
>>> Roger
>>> 
>>> Roger Kingsland, Managing Partner
>>> 
>>> Kingsland Scott Bauer Associates
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>    KSBA 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> Architects/Planners/InteriorDesigners/ProjectManagers
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 3441 Butler Street
>>> 
>>> Pittsburgh, PA 15201
>>> 
>>> N 40° 27.8344'  W79° 57.9831'
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 412-252-1500 ext.101
>>> 
>>> 412-779-5101 cell
>>> 
>>> 412-252-1510 fax
>>> 
>>> r.kingsland at ksba.com
>>> 
>>> www.ksba.com
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
>>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Laco
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:53 PM
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Conversion of water tank to holding tank
>>> 
>>> Hi Roger  - 
>>> 
>>> You're correct about the bladder tanks.  I wouldn't recommend one unless
>> it
>>> could be installed in a very smooth basin-like compartment... Sort of like
>>> the interior of an integral tank!
>>> 
>>> By the way - we completed the 2011 Misery Cruise this past weekend.  The
>>> weather was fairly balmy, wind was only 8-10kts but solidly steady.  No
>>> misery.   So to get our pulses going we resolved not to use the engine.
>> We
>>> actually beat up the Minnicognashene Channel taking 12 tacks to advance
>> the
>>> 120 meter long narrow part.  Poor SURPRISE was only about 1.5 boat lengths
>>> on the majority of those tacks before I called 'ready about - ABOUT' again
>>> and again.  We had a yacht under power behind us but they were good sports
>>> and cheered us on.  The evening on Saturday was lovely - not at all cold
>> and
>>> the stars were reflected on the still water, so looking down was nearly
>> the
>>> same as looking up.  The only flaw was that we are still in a year of
>>> minimums for northern lights so didn't see any.  Later we retired to the
>>> cabin and told old sailing stories while the woodstove glowed and the load
>>> line in the Glayva bottle went down.
>>> 
>>> Coming home Sunday, the wind had gone south so after sailing off the
>> anchor
>>> we had to beat out through Minnicog again - dead upwind both ways!  Did it
>>> in 9 tacks this time (starboard tack was a bit more of a 'gainer' this
>> time)
>>> then had a romping beat home, again with starboard tack being the gainer
>> and
>>> port the 'setter'.
>>> 
>>> Great trip, but no misery.  I'll have to try and squeak in another one
>>> before freeze up really ends the season.  Pim take note...
>>> 
>>> Gord #426 SURPRISE
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 25/10/11 1:38 PM, "Roger L. Kingsland" <r.kingsland at ksba.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Michael,
>>>> 
>>>> I fiber glassed the areas under the aft end of the V berth to make 2, 20
>>>> gallon+/- tanks; one for holding and the other for who knows what.  I
>>> bought
>>>> a 3 part polypropylene (same stuff used for holding tanks) coating system
>>> to
>>>> apply inside the compartments but haven't done it yet.
>>>> 
>>>> I made full size plywood tops with a plan to apply a few coats then
>>> install
>>>> the tops when last coat is wet.  My only concern with coating the forward
>>>> tank would be being able to reach all surfaces with a roller or paint
>>> brush.
>>>> 
>>>> RE bladder tanks, others on the page have indicated they can chafe and
>>> leak
>>>> which would be uber yucky.
>>>> 
>>>> Roger 148  
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> crufone at comcast.net
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:37 PM
>>>> To: Alberg, Public List
>>>> Subject: [Public-List] Conversion of water tank to holding tank
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> George and others,
>>>> 
>>>> What about applying a coating to the inside of the water tank if human
>>> waste
>>>> does absorb into the fiberglass tank material? Could one install a
>>> flexible
>>>> bladder tank into the original water tank? Has anyone done either of
>> these
>>>> two procedures?
>>>> 
>>>> Michael #133 
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