[Public-List] Hello from Vancouver. (Somewhat) proud newowner of Antares 1967 A30.
Jeremy Brown
j_l_brown at shaw.ca
Fri Jul 27 08:43:43 PDT 2012
Thank you so much:) that's going to be so valuable when it comes time to do it.
That's exactly my suspicion with the screws.
My understanding of the depression was exactly that, but the tabbing on the back is totally unbroken, and the deck has no depression. A different surveyor and two experienced boat people looked at it. They were puzzled by the obvious depression in the underside as the deck looks perfect on top. One said that the way the fiberglass tape goes around the trim, and the other edges make it appear that the deck was cut out and returned inside only.
I'm worried about distorting the outside deck when I move it back into place.
Mike Lehman <sail_505 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Jeremy
The long screws through the bottom provide no support at all. Once they are
removed you may find that the delamination is more pronounced, if the screws
are holding the layers together.
An understanding of how the beam was originally constructed and why it
failed is helpful to understand how it can be repaired.
1. Whitby Boat works used the wrong kind of glue to laminate the beam. Maybe
it was the only kind available at the time the boats were manufactured. The
glue failed and the laminations separated causing the beam to lose its
strength.
2. This failure was exacerbated by the fact that Whitby also countersunk the
two center bolts that hold the deck mast plate in place by several inches in
the middle of the beam where most of the load is exerted by the mast. You
can dig the large bungs out from the underside of the beam to see just how
far these bolts were countersunk and it will reveal that the beam is only
1/2 or less as thick as it appears on the outside.
3. Further complicating the problem is that the mast does not sit directly
over the beam. Only the forward edge of the mast sits on the beam so any
pressure on the after part of the mast causes the beam to twist and the deck
to deform behind the mast. Because your beam shows signs deformity you will
notice a depression of the deck behind the mast. The deck sits directly on
the beam. When this deformation occurs the fiberglass tabbing on the
underside of the deck cracks and pulls away from the beam and the underside
of the deck. This tabbing is not structural, so any attempt to repair the
tabbing will fail without fixing the beam problem.
4. The bolts Whitby used to secure the bulkheads through the beam are 1/4"
bolts often threaded all the way to the head of the bolt. These are not
sufficient fasteners. They only provide about .19" of diameter. When you
remove the bolts you will probably find they are bent. For the repair you
should replace these bolts with 5/16" bolts (.3125" diameter) that are
threaded only on the ends. This same bolt replacement is recommended for all
of the chainplate bolts.
The repair can be accomplished in several ways...
1. remove the beam and construct/install a new beam as Glenn has suggested
2. Install aluminum (or stainless steel if you have plenty of money) sister
plates on each side of the beam. 3/8" aluminum plates are plenty strong for
the repair.
The big advantage to replacing the beam is appearance. On the boats on the
Chesapeake we have used option #2. Early attempts with only one aluminum
plate failed. The 2 plate solution has never failed or moved even in
extremely heavy weather conditions over many years.
Here are the steps for doing the aluminum repair, if that is how you choose
to proceed.
1. Remove the mast or loosen the rigging a lot.
2. Use a jack and plenty of supports on the floor to spread the load as you
jack the beam into place. Check the rigging periodically to make sure it is
loose if the mast is on.
3. Once you have firm support, remove the bolts from the beam. Do not try to
jack the beam into place all at once. Do this over several days adding
increased pressure until you have the proper curvature. It may not be
possible to get all of the deflection out. While doing this you will hear
the boat creak...this is normal.
4. Remove all of the old tabbing and clean up the beam and the underside of
the deck by sanding to remove any paint or tabbing residue.
5. Have the aluminum plates ready to install
6. clamp either the forward or rear plate in place and drill out the 1/4"
holes with a 5/16" bit and drill all the way through the aluminum. Insert a
bolt in each hole as they are drilled to prevent any movement on the plate
as you are drilling.
7. After the one plate is drilled, clamp the plate to the other side of the
beam. Remove a bolt from plate #1 and drill in the opposite direction to
drill through the second plate. Push the bolt all the way through and attach
a nut. Do this with each hole until all of the pieces are 'dry' fitted
together.
8. Remove both plates and all of the bolts. Be sure to mark each plate so
you know which side faces out away from the beam.
9. Using epoxy and fiberglass tape install all new tabbing.
10. while the tabbing is curing, etch the inside of the plates that will be
in contact with the beam with aluminum etch (I use the West System 2-part
etch).
11. Once the plates are dry, apply a liberal amount of thickened epoxy to
the beam. For this I have found that West System Six-10 epoxy in the
cartridge works the best and has superior strength. Apply a bead of epoxy
and spread evenly with a plastic spatula like the ones used by auto body
shops. Be sure to add a bit more epoxy to the areas of the beams where there
are cracks. It will require 2 tubes of six-10 epoxy.
12. install the plate on the epoxied side of the beam and insert the bolts.
Repeat the procedure for the other side.
13. Once both plates are installed tighten all the bolts to "blue-faced"
torque and follow a systematic tightening process by tightening each bolt a
little at a time. Epoxy will ooze out from around the edges of the beam.
More importantly epoxy will be forced into all of the cracks adding strength
back to the original beam.
14. clean up the excess epoxy use it to make fillets and let the hole thing
cure for 24-48 hours before removing the jack.
15. To prevent beam twist, add additional supports under the beam along the
bulkhead stiffeners. These can be seen at
http://alberg30.org/maintenance/disorganized/deckbeam/repair/
Hope this helps...good luck!
Mike Lehman
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brown
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:06 PM
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Hello from Vancouver. (Somewhat) proud newowner
of Antares 1967 A30.
Thanks all for the good advice so far.
The beam looks better than it is I suspect, they drove long screws through
from the bottom to hold it together.
With the repair what I'm not sure about is that dip down in the fiberglass,
it should be concave there, not convex, yet my deck looks fine on top. It
is a greater dip down, as you can see in the center of the picture, the arch
is reversed in the center. This convex area is deeper than the difference
in the paint line in the v berth, it appears fiberglass was later applied in
the area as though a repair was made. I am concerned about what is in
there, and damaging whatever may have been done.
Re solid beam: it seems the metal plate repair has stood the test of time
very well in many boats. I'm generally inclined to stick to known and tried
solutions when possible.
If it comes time to sell, a known, proven upgrade or fix is best I suspect.
With a4x10x length of arch piece of purple heart I'd be more inclined to do
it that way, since it has such dense tough structure, but that is a very
expensive piece of wood... my dad was talking same dimensions as stock and
fir or microlam which I won't do.
An in place lamination makes sense to me, or overkill size of beam.
Was it 10 horizontal, or vertical with an arch cut in? It sounds very
appealing and strong either way.
Glennb <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
Hello Jeremy,
I agree with your father regarding shaping a new mast support out of wood
with a bandsaw, I did that on my boat a few years ago and am very happy
every time I look at at it. the aluminim fix is undoubtedly quick to
install and probably distributes the compression loading loading from the
mast properly. but it is not seamanship like, in my mind, to bolt a piece
of metal over an old, failing beam and call it good. what happens when the
old beam further delaminates and starts to twist around behind the aluminum
plate? Which it will do eventually... I replaced my beam with a 4" x 10"
length of purple hart, radiused down to fit the camber of the cabin and have
no problems since. it looks great with a couple coats of varnish. if you
take the extra care to do it right the first time you will have a permanent
fix, and restore value to the boat.
BTW, there's nothing wrong with day sailing as Is. your beam looks like
it's in much better shape than mine was, and I sailed the boat around Puget
Sound for three years before replacing the beam. also, I would let the
improper thru hull Hose thing slow you down. there are usually only five or
six thru hulls on the boat, including cockpit drain, so you could fairly
quickly replace the hoses that are suspect and alleviate any risk. also
shut off the gate valves when you are not on board! no water can come in, if
the valves are closed... Cheap insurance!
have fun with the boat. They are very seaworthy craft.
Cheers
Glenn Brooks
dolce 318
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 25, 2012, at 12:42 PM, "Noonan, Jim (WB)" <Jim.Noonan at warnerbros.com>
wrote:
> Jeremy, I'm not an attorney (nor do I play one on TV) but I was struck by
> the response of your surveyor when you asked about the engine as well as
> the complete lack of good faith and professionalism in the report you got.
> If you signed a contract with the surveyor I would suggest having a lawyer
> take a quick look at it. If the surveyor didn't live up to the contractual
> obligation a letter from the attorney might lead to some kind of
> settlement that would help pay to fix the problems that should have been
> made clear to you. I am no fan of lawyers and law suits but if it wasn't
> his job to tell you that the engine wasn't as advertised and point out the
> other problems what exactly was his job. Sorry you had this experience but
> I think it is terrific that you've remained so positive. Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:37 PM
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: [Public-List] Hello from Vancouver. (Somewhat) proud new owner of
> Antares 1967 A30.
>
> I'm new to large boats, I sailed dinghy's as a kid, but this is a totally
> new world for me :-) Both good and bad so far.
> I've landed an amazing job out of it working for a great guy who has a
> shop here in Vancouver. I'm working on boats of all sizes, and learning
> skills that directly relate to working on my boat, and contacts who are
> able to help with some areas as well. I'm learning a lot quickly, and
> though in hindsight I never would have taken on a project like this boat,
> I'm thankful for all that I'm learning.
> I'll get the bad out of the way first, since there is a fair bit of it,
> feel free to skip over it if it's too long.
>
> *****start of bad*****
>
> I bought her based on an advertisement that sadly didn't match what she
> actually was, from the supposedly brand new engine, sails, head and
> wiring, to the aluminium plate which I was told was glassed in flat over
> top of the beam to strengthen it. She was supposed to have a much larger
> 40 gallon water and at least 30 gallon diesel tank.
>
> What I've got is a boat with good bones, and the signs that somewhere in
> her past someone cared for her well before the more recent, and unknown
> number of butchers got their hands on her.
> It seems that the owner I purchased her from was sold the same story I
> was, and passed it along, whether with full knowledge of what he was
> actually selling by the end or not I still don't know. He says he was
> misled, and I am inclined to believe him, he seems like a decent guy. He
> reimbursed me part of the sale, but that money has already gone, I sorted
> out most of the electrical system with it.
> My engine is 16 years older than I was led to believe, sail appears to be
> in good order, but I believe it to be about a decade older than I was told
> now. Electrical was a total write off, speaker wire all over the place,
> two hots in one cable split and common grounds later, melted insulation
> and household twist connectors all over.
>
> My surveyor noted the engine as being new on paper, but later stated that
> it wasn't his job to tell me these things, and that he knew it was older
> at the time, but since the seller and I were happy with the age we stated
> it was, it wasn't his position to tell us we were wrong.
> He didn't mention the broken tabbing in various places, or the delaminated
> mast beam that was "repaired" with household grade Robertson screws driven
> in from the bottom to hold the lamination together.
> He also listed the water tank as 30 gallons, but it turns out to be about
> 15, as soon as I figured out on my own later how to open it, I knew it was
> nowhere near that.
>
> I'm starting to make the needed changes to make her safe, comfortable and
> generally back to what she should be, then hopefully doing some upgrading
> and cosmetic work when I have time, I have taken a slip for a year since
> she isn't safe to anchor out in in my opinion, hoses with glued on ends
> single clamped over the threaded end of a sea-cock and a bit of electrical
> tape as sealant didn't leave me confident enough until I go through her
> top to bottom and end to end.
>
> I unfortunately can't see the numbers in my picture of the number-plate,
> but I'll get the hull number soon from that to update the list in case she
> isn't on there.
>
> I've determined that the mast she has is likely not original, it has a
> sticker for a North Vancouver shop on it near the base, there are rumors
> that she may have made some long trips, but beyond that I have little
> history.
>
> One of the butchers unfortunately had access to a sawzall or skil saw and
> remodeled the V-berth badly.
>
> *********end of bad****
>
> The electrical is resolved to the point that it's safe, though details
> such as lighting still need to be sorted. The next logical step for me I
> think is to resolve the issues with the mast beam, and interior
> fiberglass, basically redoing the tabbing, this will be done by a
> professional, who is fast and good at it, I'm paying his hourly and
> materials at wholesale rahter than a shop-rate, since he also works for
> the same guy I do.
>
> As for the mast beam I am not sure quite how to approach it, it appears to
> have the classic de-lamination, but with a twist, the deck dips down in
> the center inside, but no water pooling or signs of issues on deck. When
> tapped it sounds solid, and I'm wondering if someone did something inside
> like replacing the core.
> The beam is flattened in the middle, but I'm not sure if it quite matches
> the curve of the deck inside, I have photographs but I'm not sure how to
> post them.
> Once i know what is going on with the cabintop, I'll be fixing the beam I
> hope, my father wants me to excavate it, and simply bandsaw a solid piece
> of wood to replace it, or a microlam beam bandsawn to fit. He feels that
> the aluminium plate repair doesn't do much to help, and is not an
> appropriate solution.
>
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