[Public-List] Public-List Digest, Vol 2673, Issue 1
Paul Murray
pmurray2 at charter.net
Mon Oct 7 08:29:49 PDT 2013
I have some experience with hickory. It rots faster than any other wood I deal with for firewood. I've got some I bought last March that has been outdoors in a pile and it is already getting light. It'll be gone in a year. It is strong when new, , but it seems as if moisture is a problem with it. I'd use the oak. White oak is the best, or live oak if you can find it. Other oaks would work, too. I'd avoid the hickory though.
Paul Murray
On Oct 7, 2013, at 10:56 AM, public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Old Hickory (isobar at verizon.net)
> 2. Re: Old Hickory (Michael Grosh)
> 3. Re: restoration items (Mike Lehman)
> 4. Surveyor for Alberg 30 (John Johnston)
> 5. Re: Old Hickory (isobar at verizon.net)
> 6. Mast beam project, photos and question (Jeffrey)
> 7. Alberg 30 For Sale (Mark Dietrich)
> 8. Re: Old Hickory (Gordon Laco)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 16:47:53 -0500 (CDT)
> From: isobar at verizon.net
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Old Hickory
> Message-ID: <32584066.2537032.1381096073358.JavaMail.root at vznit170188>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Michael... I love talking about woodworking which probably doesn't
> interest anyone else on the list; but, what the heck, I pay George a
> lot for my subscription. Anyway, I doubt if Spruce would be ideal
> based on the following chart I extracted of woods (sorted in
> compression) one might consider for spreader replacement. Spreaders
> load is in compression and spruce is at the bottom. From that, hickory
> seems even more attractive. Have your hickory axe handles or hammers
> rotted away? Is there anyone on the list who knows more than I do
> about hickory wood rot? They must be legion... Bob Kirk
> <
>
> Species Spec Gravity Compression Bending Stiffness Hardness
> Hickory 0.72 9,210 20,200 2.16 NA
> Teak 0.55 8,410 14,600 1.55 1,000
> Maple, Hard 0.63 7,830 15,800 1.83 1,450
> Oak, White 0.68 7,440 15,200 1.78 1,360
> Fir, Douglas 0.49 7,230 12,400 1.95 710
> Mahogany, Honduras 0.45 6,780 11,500 1.50 800
> Oak, Red 0.63 6,760 14,300 1.82 1,290
> Cedar, Aromatic Red 0.47 6,020 8,800 0.88 900
> Spruce, Sitka 0.40 5,610 10,200 1.57 510
>
>
>
> On 10/06/13, Michael Grosh<[1]dickdurk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I am not an expert on wood, but my understanding is it's fresh water
> that
> causes rot, so distance from sealevel wouldn't really...
> I have wondered if close grained spruce would be good for spreaders.
> Lighter weight aloft. My oak ones are fairly hefty.
> MichaelGrosh
> #220
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:dickdurk at gmail.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:17:45 -0400
> From: Michael Grosh <dickdurk at gmail.com>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Old Hickory
> Message-ID:
> <CAO99GuFF0atW6V3YdxtSRudgdo0BFdbqsSapisXCRnxDOF5twg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> That's a heck of a chart, Bob. I read it as spruce being 1/2 the weight,
> and 2/3 compression (resistance?) Of white oak approx.
> So I suppose spruce being bendy is desirable in masts (racing dingys,
> etc.). It's a pretty spiffy wood for a pair of 9' oars I have also.
> Scratch the spreader idea. Maybe that's why later boats are in aluminum.
> MichaelGrosh
> #220
> On Oct 6, 2013 5:47 PM, <isobar at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Michael... I love talking about woodworking which probably doesn't
>> interest anyone else on the list; but, what the heck, I pay George a
>> lot for my subscription. Anyway, I doubt if Spruce would be ideal
>> based on the following chart I extracted of woods (sorted in
>> compression) one might consider for spreader replacement. Spreaders
>> load is in compression and spruce is at the bottom. From that, hickory
>> seems even more attractive. Have your hickory axe handles or hammers
>> rotted away? Is there anyone on the list who knows more than I do
>> about hickory wood rot? They must be legion... Bob Kirk
>> <
>>
>> Species Spec Gravity Compression Bending Stiffness Hardness
>> Hickory 0.72 9,210 20,200 2.16 NA
>> Teak 0.55 8,410 14,600 1.55 1,000
>> Maple, Hard 0.63 7,830 15,800 1.83 1,450
>> Oak, White 0.68 7,440 15,200 1.78 1,360
>> Fir, Douglas 0.49 7,230 12,400 1.95 710
>> Mahogany, Honduras 0.45 6,780 11,500 1.50 800
>> Oak, Red 0.63 6,760 14,300 1.82 1,290
>> Cedar, Aromatic Red 0.47 6,020 8,800 0.88 900
>> Spruce, Sitka 0.40 5,610 10,200 1.57 510
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/06/13, Michael Grosh<[1]dickdurk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not an expert on wood, but my understanding is it's fresh water
>> that
>> causes rot, so distance from sealevel wouldn't really...
>> I have wondered if close grained spruce would be good for spreaders.
>> Lighter weight aloft. My oak ones are fairly hefty.
>> MichaelGrosh
>> #220
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:dickdurk at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> These businesses support your Association:
>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>> Please support them.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Public-List mailing list
>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 09:02:41 -0400
> From: Mike Lehman <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] restoration items
> Message-ID: <BAY405-EAS3976BA9476A6F1EC4339A13B7130 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I have a whole tree of red oak and various thickness all rough cut, just needs to be planed and cut. If anyone needs some, let me know.
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
> From: "Michael Grosh" <dickdurk at gmail.com>
> Sent: October 5, 2013 5:03 PM
> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] restoration items
>
> I had to replace one of mine when in Texas; white oak was not available, so
> I have one of white oak, one of red. That was over 30 years ago, both are
> doing well. I fabricated it with a portable jig saw and a hand plane, using
> the old one as a template. It's not rocket science.
> MichaelGrosh
> #220
> On Oct 5, 2013 2:53 PM, "Bill Woodford" <williamwoodford at charleswoodford.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> I replaced my wooden spreaders this year on US 11. One of my crew members
>> has a custom woodworking business and he made mine. I had trouble finding
>> white oak for the project and he was able to locate it for me. Several
>> association members strongly advised using white oak.
>>
>> http://www.hoffmans-furniture.com
>>
>> Best of luck,
>>
>> Woody
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Robert Alley <1ralley at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> With regard to spreaders, the most important issue is to determine the
>>> condition of the hardware and the wood. If solid, there is no reason not
>>> to reuse them. If any parts are unsound, then you must replace. If you
>>> replace the wood, think about using white oak, which is a bit more rot
>>> resistant than other things that could be used. I painted the tops,
>>> leading and trailing edges, and end grains white (3 or more coats) and
>> the
>>> bottoms with a marine clear finish (5 coats) years ago. It was a good
>>> quality, relatively expensive marine exterior paint; it lasted about 8
>>> years. You may find shims on the inboard ends, and perhaps that the
>>> attachment bolts are fully theaded. I chose to make my shims aluminum
>> only,
>>> (the bracket on the mast is aluminum) and the fully threaded bolts should
>>> be replaced with bolts that are not threaded where they pass through the
>>> wood. It is important to check your wooden spreaders about once a year.
>>> They work hard in all weather, and any breaks in the applied finish
>> should
>>> be immediately attended to so as to avoid rot.
>>>
>>> Rob Alley
>>> A30219
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/4/2013 3:20 PM, matt strickland wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, I've started in on my project to get #416 back in the water and
>>>> have a couple jobs on which I was hoping to get some advice.
>>>>
>>>> Number one is the bilge. I'm sure that everyone has had experiences
>>>> pulling all kinds of stuff out of their bilges, but as I look down into
>> the
>>>> water/oil/god-only-knows-what stew down there, I find myself asking
>> "wait,
>>>> she's up on the hard, why can't I drain this out?" so I'm wondering if
>>>> anyone has had experience installing a garboard drain? Is there an
>> ideal
>>>> spot to locate it? What landmarks on the boat are reliable from which
>> to
>>>> measure where it should go?
>>>>
>>>> Number two is the spreaders. They are wood and look to be in need of
>>>> replacement. I'm going to take the mast down so that I can inspect
>>>> everything from top to bottom, and also redrill the chainplates while
>> I'm
>>>> at it. But does anyone have a good line on a place to get replacements
>> in
>>>> the Annapolis area? I'm not adverse to going to with aluminum as a
>>>> replacement, but also have no problem staying with wood. Right now my
>>>> restoration budget is really tight so whatever is going to be simplest
>> and
>>>> most cost-effective is probably the way I'll go on this item.
>>>>
>>>> I've got plenty more things to ask about, but I figure I'll start with
>>>> these two and move to the rest as I get to them. I've been looking
>> through
>>>> the archives of the mailing list and gotten a lot of great information
>>>> already, so I can tell that this community is going to be great to be a
>>>> part of.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>> #416 - TBD (still)
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/**A30supporters.html<
>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html>
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/**listinfo.cgi/public-list-**alberg30.org<
>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> These businesses support your Association:
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>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html>
>>> Please support them.
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> Please support them.
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>>
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> Please support them.
> _______________________________________________
> Public-List mailing list
> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 09:55:08 -0400
> From: John Johnston <danceswithwood at earthlink.net>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: [Public-List] Surveyor for Alberg 30
> Message-ID: <9CAF41E6-6CFF-4553-99C0-40C16626CCFC at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hello all! I'm looking for a surveyor in the general area of Middle River, Md, who has familiarity with Albergs, particularly in evaluating structural integrity of hull, which has taken a hit in the past. Anyone have suggestions? Thanks!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 08:59:52 -0500 (CDT)
> From: isobar at verizon.net
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Old Hickory
> Message-ID: <26496326.2561117.1381154392712.JavaMail.root at vznit170188>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On 10/06/13, Michael Grosh<dickdurk at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's a heck of a chart, Bob. I read it as spruce being 1/2 the
> weight, and 2/3 compression (resistance?) Of white oak approx.
> [That's right, Michael. Sorry I forgot to include the definitions:
> Compressive strength tells you how much of a load
> a wood species can withstand parallel to the grain. How much weight wi
> ll the legs of a table support before they buckle?
>
> Measure the compressive strength by loading a block of wood parallel to
> the grain until it breaks]
> So I suppose spruce being bendy is desirable in masts (racing dingys,
> etc.). It's a pretty spiffy wood for a pair of 9' oars I have also.
> Scratch the spreader idea. Maybe that's why later boats are in
> aluminum.
> [ I wonder why they switched, too. Cheaper? Easier to fabricate?
> Certainly not for looks or performance.]
> Bob
> p.s. I apologize if my strength figures are incorrect (though I doubt
> it). I had to take them from a third party source since the bast..
> oops, government employees, took down the forest service database on
> their web site because of the "shutdown". Presumably a waste of
> electricity or some such.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:41:53 -0400
> From: Jeffrey <fongemie at gmail.com>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: [Public-List] Mast beam project, photos and question
> Message-ID:
> <CAMRY+95iMd+p5M4z3frQbZtmemOUsMJbvAyT7_sK5x94mNwLFw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I've jumped into the project of replacing the mast beam on Seagrass.
>
> If interested: http://216.172.166.167/~seagrass/mast-beam-project/
>
> Question: My boat has vertical oak posts supporting the beam, and I'd like
> to remove and replace them. Trouble is, I can't figure out how they are
> attached to the bulkhead. I don't see any fasteners or bungs on the
> outside. I'm afraid they may be glued to the bulkhead, or attached with
> screws from the other side of the bulkhead with the heads of the fasteners
> under the Formica.
>
> Anyone remove these posts? What kind of mess am looking at. I don't want
> to destroy the bulkhead.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> ______________
>
> Jeffrey Fongemie
>
> <http://instagram.com/jfongemie>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 07:52:57 -0700
> From: Mark Dietrich <mrkdtrch at yahoo.com>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: [Public-List] Alberg 30 For Sale
> Message-ID: <66031848-C18B-4787-A22C-408F20334760 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hello all,
> I have decided to sell number 351, St Judith. She is in San Francisco Bay. She has a sweet running atomic 4, and good sails.
> If anyone is interested email me: mrkdtrch at yahoo.com
> Thanks,
> Mark Dietrich
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 10:56:21 -0400
> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Old Hickory
> Message-ID: <CE7843D5.14097%mainstay at csolve.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> This is a very interesting subject.
>
> All species of wood have strengths and weaknesses (well most do, some aren't
> good at anything in boat building...)
>
> Sitka spruce is favoured for spars despite its softness and low rot
> resistance. We tolerate the weaknesses because of respect for its stiffness
> and light weight, availability in lengths and even grain.
>
> Fir (Oregon Pine to some) is up there (pun intended) for spars near sitka
> because of it's greater rot resistance, greater hardness (particularly with
> regard to holding bolts and screws), and even grain. It's less well
> regarded than sitka because it's heavier.
>
> Neither of those woods are favoured for spreaders because what makes a
> spreader good is hardness (which equates with resistance to compression) and
> rot resistance. We don't care quite so much about weight in spreaders
> because in the scheme of things they aren't very big. White Oak is very
> good for spreaders because it's hard, has good rot resistance, and has a
> nice closed grain so that what water gets into its end grain won't travel
> through it well (this is in direct contradiction to the opposite
> characteristic with regard to grain exhibited by red oak)
>
> Rot resistance is important, even aloft, because even though they're up in
> the air, moisture can get into them at bolt or lacing holes. I would
> suggest that hickory isn't a good choice unless one armours them as well as
> possible (epoxy saturation at bolt holes etc).
>
> However, all this is not to say you can't make whatever you have to use work
> after a fashion.
>
> Touch Wood, my wooden boat, once broke her spinnaker pole in the midst of a
> regatta. It was a lovely sitka spruce spar and I needed another quickly. I
> drove to the local lumber store but of course they didn't have sitka spruce
> (in fact disputed with me that spruce could be a premium wood) I bought
> regular spruce and built a pole; it broke like a carrot the first time I
> used it.
>
> Back I went and bought a piece of maple of about the correct dimensions.
>
> Anyone would tell you that maple has no place in a boat. Yes, it's hard,
> but it has very poor rot resistance and is somewhat heavy. But that's what
> was there and I had another race to be at the next day. I bought it and
> that night made it into a spinnaker pole. I used it happily for twelve
> years and it was with TW on her long voyage south until Hurricane Katrina
> tore it off her deck chocks. I don't doubt someone found it and perhaps
> it's still being used today...unless the varnish went, water got into it,
> and it rotted.
>
> I guess choosing wood is something like sailing in bad weather. Going out
> when you don't have to, knowing a storm is coming is not good seamanship.
> But coping with bad weather if it catches you is good seamanship. Using
> inappropriate woods, knowing the trouble they'll give later, isn't wise:
> using inappropriate wood if that's all you can get, and coping with it in
> knowledge of what you're dealing with, well, maybe that can be considered
> clever (but perhaps not wise...)
>
> Gord #426 Surprise
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 07/10/13 9:59 AM, "isobar at verizon.net" <isobar at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/06/13, Michael Grosh<dickdurk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's a heck of a chart, Bob. I read it as spruce being 1/2 the
>> weight, and 2/3 compression (resistance?) Of white oak approx.
>> [That's right, Michael. Sorry I forgot to include the definitions:
>> Compressive strength tells you how much of a load
>> a wood species can withstand parallel to the grain. How much weight wi
>> ll the legs of a table support before they buckle?
>>
>> Measure the compressive strength by loading a block of wood parallel to
>> the grain until it breaks]
>> So I suppose spruce being bendy is desirable in masts (racing dingys,
>> etc.). It's a pretty spiffy wood for a pair of 9' oars I have also.
>> Scratch the spreader idea. Maybe that's why later boats are in
>> aluminum.
>> [ I wonder why they switched, too. Cheaper? Easier to fabricate?
>> Certainly not for looks or performance.]
>> Bob
>> p.s. I apologize if my strength figures are incorrect (though I doubt
>> it). I had to take them from a third party source since the bast..
>> oops, government employees, took down the forest service database on
>> their web site because of the "shutdown". Presumably a waste of
>> electricity or some such.
>> _______________________________________________
>> These businesses support your Association:
>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>> Please support them.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Public-List mailing list
>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> Please support them.
> _______________________________________________
> Public-List mailing list
> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
> End of Public-List Digest, Vol 2673, Issue 1
> ********************************************
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