[Public-List] Life lines

Wed Jul 9 09:26:08 PDT 2014

George and Mike
 Good points on the failure mode analysis - don't want a single point of failure to drown you! It's my favorite position when the boat is heeled to the rail so I will have to look hard at the pelican hooks.  
  I am not sure about Gord's opinion that the lifelines are not safe to lean on. If they cannot take the static load of my back at 25 degrees of heel, then they can't take the shock load when you grab them in the center as you fall overboard.  If they can't do that then they should not be there at all.

While the Chesapeake is not the Atlantic, as a frequent single hander I know the chain-of-failure processes that can put you at real risk out there, and respect them.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Public-List [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lehman via Public-List
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 10:05 AM
To: Gordon Laco; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Life lines

I too nearly went overboard when the hinge pin on the pelican broke. I was sitting on the low side with the rail in the water when it let go...it was all I could do to stay aboard. I got rid of the pelican hooks after that.

~~~_/)_/)~~ Mike Lehman ~~_/)~~~

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Laco via Public-List
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 9:58 AM
To: Wes Gardner ; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Cc: George Dinwiddie
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Life lines

Well here goes -

I¹ve seen people lean on lifelines; I put that behaviour in the same
category as other bad habits that sometimes become normal behaviour.    Our
lifelines are too low, and our decks even when new are not strong enough for lifelines to be the real safety barrier everyone wishes them to be.  The prudent seaman considers them a last chance to keep a person aboard, not a solidly strong bulwark.  One should make them as strong as possible, but the truth is they cannot be assumed to be safe to lean on.  That¹s a bad habit.

I used to sail alone without a harness, but two things happened the same summer many years ago while sailing my Folkboat.  She was so well balanced that she¹d track a long way without help from the tiller.  One afternoon I walked forward to flick a tickler that had caught on the genoa¹s stitching...on the way back to the cockpit, walking normally, the boat gave a slight heave and I very nearly went overboard.  It was spring, the water was very cold, and it occurred to me that I¹d have been very lucky to have caught up with TOUCH WOOD as she close reached away, rounded up, fell off then reached away again.  I¹d have been dead that afternoon.  The second thing happened a few weeks later.  During a race while crewing in another yacht, we found an old corpse in the water.  I learned the next day that the young man had been identified by his father... I swore to myself I didn¹t want my own father ever to have to look at a mess like that if I could easily prevent it.

What I just wrote has nothing directly to do with the lifeline discussion  but it does have everything to do with good seamanship and how easy it is
for bad habits to become normal behaviour.   It¹s so easy to forget that out
on the water we¹re in an alien and hostile environment where humans don¹t really belong.  Our boats keep us alive  nobody would live for long a few hundred meters off the beach without a boat under them.  We get so used to successfully returning that we forget how near death can be.

I would recommend anyone interested should read this http://www.woodenboat.com/lessons-bounty

I participated in some of the professional aftermath of the BOUNTY disaster... The issue dealt with in the article above is one that touches all of us and not just in sailing.  What struck me most deeply was the issue
of becoming habituated to risk.   It¹s so easy to forget....

Gord #426 Surprise

On 09/07/14 9:22 AM, "Wes Gardner" <wesgardner1952 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Gentlemen, gentlemen, I know I'll get flamed for this but....these 
> strings around the top of those posts are LIFELINES. They need to 
> offer some level of assurance or they shouldn't be on a sailboat, 
> particularly one as capable as an Alberg.  Would I go offshore, 
> basically alone on deck without a harness, probably not - my wife 
> makes me wear one when I go singlehanded cruising in Round Bay but 
> that's me.  In my racing days EVERY boat I sailed on we used the 
> lifelines to lean on to read the tails from the leeward side, and yes, 
> in alotta cases the spongy cushy things were there, or we'd stand on 
> the top lifeline to adjust the pole or leechline...tell me you've 
> never done this??? I still lean on mine all the time.  Personally, if 
> my lifelines were to the point of the stanchion bases yanking out of 
> the deck if I even looked escance at them, I'd be backing them up with 
> fender washers, more glass or whatever.
> Crappy stuff like that belongs on a powerboat or better yet, a Yugo.
>
>
> Flame on...
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Gordon Laco via Public-List 
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>> I tell crew members to pretend they're electrified.
>>
>> On 2014-07-08, at 11:41 PM, George Dinwiddie via Public-List 
>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > Better, don't lean on the lifelines.
>>> >
>>> > On 7/8/14, 8:53 PM, Wes Gardner via Public-List wrote:
>>>> >> And don't forget lifeline covers that increase the diameter
>>>> significantly and make them cushy to lean on.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sent from my iPad
>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:42 PM, Glenn Brooks via Public-List
>>>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I changed my old plastic life lines for spectra lifelines 
>>>>> >>> three or
>>>>> four years ago, as a test, and have been happy as a clam ever since.
>>>>>  There is an interesting and long discussion on the cruising world 
>>>>> forum about the high modulus fiber lifelines - basically spectra, 
>>>>> dyneema, and or DuX brands.  The international sail racing 
>>>>> federation apparently recommends 5mm diameter (10,000# breaking 
>>>>> strength) Dyneema or DuX, or equivalent in non coated wire.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> One huge advantage, I think, is that one can always pull the 
>>>>> >>> lifelines
>>>>> off and use as standing or running rigging in an emergency.  So no 
>>>>> more lugging around a bunch of nasty, heavy wire coils in the the 
>>>>> bilge or wasting prime locker space whilst cruising the seven 
>>>>> seas. Some of the local race boats have dropped hundreds of pounds 
>>>>> of weight out of their rigging by replacing all wire with this 
>>>>> stuff.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Apparently The big concerns are using a proper splice that 
>>>>> >>> won't pull
>>>>> out, and that the fiber line must be turned around a 5:1 deadeye 
>>>>> to retain max breaking strength.  So 5mm line needs 25 mm deadeye 
>>>>> -1" eye.  Not a big deal... However, Looping around a pelican hook 
>>>>> or other sharp radius reduces the breaking strength in half.  Down 
>>>>> to 4,500#.  As that is the working load for lifting three bull 
>>>>> moose off the ground, and the standard for pacific racing 
>>>>> association life lines, I think I will  be staying with the fiber 
>>>>> lines.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Glenn B
>>>>> >>> dolce 318
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 1:27 PM, Bill Newman via Public-List
>>>>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I am looking at replacing the lifelines on  No. 233, plastic 
>>>>>> >>>> covered
>>>>>> and at least 25 years old.  They seem to be sound excepting a 
>>>>>> couple of cracks in the plastic and having only been in fresh 
>>>>>> water.  I have been doing a little internet research and the 
>>>>>> current fashion seems to be stainless wire without the plastic 
>>>>>> covering, now required in some races such as the Lake Ontario 300 
>>>>>> mile race and also there is a new type of rope which is non 
>>>>>> stretch, UV resistant and apparently very strong.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> wire on boats I have seen is fairly skinny and looks like it 
>>>>>> would be very uncomfortable to handle.  Any opinions on the 
>>>>>> subject will be appreciated.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Regards,
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Bill Newman
>>>>>> >>>> Marion Rose III, No. 233
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >  When I remember bygone days                         George Dinwiddie
>>> >  I think how evening follows morn;            gdinwiddie at alberg30.org
>>> >  So many I loved were not yet dead,           http://www.Alberg30.org
>>> >  So many I love were not yet born.                          also see:
>>> >               'The Middle' by Ogden Nash     http://idiacomputing.com
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > ----
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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