[Public-List] Public-List Digest, Vol 3902, Issue 1

Michael Devonshire Devonshire at jhpokorny.com
Wed Aug 21 04:00:40 PDT 2019


Got pics?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 20, 2019, at 7:38 PM, Sheldon Shikoluk via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> 
> I used Epifannes two part polyeurathane on hull for #481 Rainbow. I brushed
> it on and came out like a spray job. Really good paint!?
> 
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 4:13 PM <public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org>
> wrote:
> 
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>> ======================================================
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>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. Ettiquette at anchor? (Randy Katz)
>>   2. Re: Ettiquette at anchor? (Wehicks)
>>   3. Re: Ettiquette at anchor? (Gordon Laco)
>>   4. Re: cabin top traveller (Andrew Johns)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 20:50:15 -0700
>> From: Randy Katz <randy.katz50 at gmail.com>
>> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>> Subject: [Public-List] Ettiquette at anchor?
>> Message-ID:
>>        <CAFqGGGgrS1mO5EJtGOx4eY_yuYH0Kwko=
>> 4Y-DRkikKFhzD7LBA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> 
>> Greetings, 'Bergers,
>> 
>> Gordon's story below reminded me of a concern we're always a bit unsure
>> about. We seem plagued by noisy generators on nearby boats, as I'm sure
>> others have experienced. Watmough Bay on south Lopez Island, WA., a couple
>> of weeks ago--Nearly all sailboats, ah, nice and quiet. Until another
>> sailboat-- :( --with its gen exhaust pointed right at us starts ripping
>> away... for 2 hours around dinner time.
>> 
>> I'm an adult, I can figure these things out, but I'm curious about the
>> response of others. Does one dare ask to the skipper how long such an
>> intrusion is expected to continue, by way of giving a hint? Is it
>> preferable to pull up anchor and move? Is it best even so to adopt a zen
>> attitude and endure till the end? When will modern electrical management
>> systems, LEDs, etc. become pervasive enough to reduce gen use? Not in my
>> lifetime, I'm afraid.
>> 
>> And then sometimes at 7 in the morning, too!
>> 
>> We often anchor far off from other vessels knowing this problem will come
>> up. We go to the beautiful places for peace and quiet, not for listening to
>> engines running on and on.
>> 
>> Any experiences or suggestions would be welcomed.
>> 
>> Many Thanks,
>> Randy Katz
>> #249 Simple Gifts
>> Seattle/Bellingham, WA
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 11:04:10 -0400
>> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>        <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: [Public-List] Cruising...
>> Message-ID: <89016B18-7D9F-478F-BC36-8B4C2C39B2FA at csolve.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>> 
>> So there we were on Friday morning? the usual tornado that are my business
>> ventures seemed under control? so we decided to make it a long weekend and
>> escape up the coast in the boat.
>> 
>> We loaded up with ice, food, treats and a ginger beer called ?Crabby?s?
>> we?ve become addicted to.
>> 
>> Severn Sound was under dead calm conditions so we motored away without
>> remorse about not sailing.  At 5.8 knots we got up to our favourite
>> anchorage in 2.5 hours.   Ya, it?s not sailing, but on the other hand
>> serious lounging at anchor...
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 01:12:08 -0500
>> From: Wehicks <wehicks at gmail.com>
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>        <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Ettiquette at anchor?
>> Message-ID: <14488FF6-FE1D-4393-8CBA-B5F46C88D80F at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>> 
>> Send a picture of the crabby bottle. I would like to try.
>> Walter.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 10:50 PM, Randy Katz via Public-List <
>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Greetings, 'Bergers,
>>> 
>>> Gordon's story below reminded me of a concern we're always a bit unsure
>>> about. We seem plagued by noisy generators on nearby boats, as I'm sure
>>> others have experienced. Watmough Bay on south Lopez Island, WA., a
>> couple
>>> of weeks ago--Nearly all sailboats, ah, nice and quiet. Until another
>>> sailboat-- :( --with its gen exhaust pointed right at us starts ripping
>>> away... for 2 hours around dinner time.
>>> 
>>> I'm an adult, I can figure these things out, but I'm curious about the
>>> response of others. Does one dare ask to the skipper how long such an
>>> intrusion is expected to continue, by way of giving a hint? Is it
>>> preferable to pull up anchor and move? Is it best even so to adopt a zen
>>> attitude and endure till the end? When will modern electrical management
>>> systems, LEDs, etc. become pervasive enough to reduce gen use? Not in my
>>> lifetime, I'm afraid.
>>> 
>>> And then sometimes at 7 in the morning, too!
>>> 
>>> We often anchor far off from other vessels knowing this problem will come
>>> up. We go to the beautiful places for peace and quiet, not for listening
>> to
>>> engines running on and on.
>>> 
>>> Any experiences or suggestions would be welcomed.
>>> 
>>> Many Thanks,
>>> Randy Katz
>>> #249 Simple Gifts
>>> Seattle/Bellingham, WA
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 11:04:10 -0400
>>> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>>       <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Subject: [Public-List] Cruising...
>>> Message-ID: <89016B18-7D9F-478F-BC36-8B4C2C39B2FA at csolve.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>>> 
>>> So there we were on Friday morning? the usual tornado that are my
>> business
>>> ventures seemed under control? so we decided to make it a long weekend
>> and
>>> escape up the coast in the boat.
>>> 
>>> We loaded up with ice, food, treats and a ginger beer called ?Crabby?s?
>>> we?ve become addicted to.
>>> 
>>> Severn Sound was under dead calm conditions so we motored away without
>>> remorse about not sailing.  At 5.8 knots we got up to our favourite
>>> anchorage in 2.5 hours.   Ya, it?s not sailing, but on the other hand
>>> serious lounging at anchor...
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.alberg30.org_store_A30supporters.html&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=ouXu9RgAjPK88ofs6Pi9JpnEwObmTi-UxOIv9uRFX50&e=
>>> Please support them.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Public-List mailing list
>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.alberg30.org_listinfo.cgi_public-2Dlist-2Dalberg30.org&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=Sr4s-zVBw0GRUk7DwYINulmp_sq906Ed-FUMmftz1B0&e=
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:24:52 -0400
>> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>        <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Ettiquette at anchor?
>> Message-ID: <CC0AFA36-EBC6-4A16-88DD-95353810F632 at csolve.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>> 
>> Here it is Walter?
>> 
>> 
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.lcbo.com_webapp_wcs_stores_servlet_en_lcbo_niche_crabbies-2Doriginal-2Dalcoholic-2Dginger-2Dbeer-2D272807-23.XVvhaZNKjOQ&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=2AzWrqOA4JipItL2HHwwuHsbFROXry9hRL2MM_lrQ08&e=
>> <
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.lcbo.com_webapp_wcs_stores_servlet_en_lcbo_niche_crabbies-2Doriginal-2Dalcoholic-2Dginger-2Dbeer-2D272807-23.XVvhaZNKjOQ&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=2AzWrqOA4JipItL2HHwwuHsbFROXry9hRL2MM_lrQ08&e=
>>> 
>> 
>> Hello Randy - use of gen sets in otherwise quiet anchorages is a growing
>> problem.   I try to ignore them unless their use is especially obnoxious,
>> such as in the case of a large black hulled motor cruiser who joined us in
>> a cove with us last year.  We were the only two boats there, yet they chose
>> to moor themselves to the shore literally within  thirty feet of our port
>> side.  They proceed to start up their generator, then their air
>> conditioning then put a loud professional sports game on their TV.  Why go
>> to a wilderness anchorage if they wanted to watch sports on TV?
>> 
>> Later when they emerged on deck I engaged them in conversation and in the
>> course of that, asked them how long they would be running their generator.
>> Their response was foul and aggressive.  We moved when they started running
>> a jet ski at high speed in the tiny cove.
>> 
>> But perhaps there is justice in the universe.  Last winter at the Toronto
>> Int?l Boat Show I was in my display with my usual neighbours, one of whom
>> is an operator of marinas.  We began sharing stories of inconsiderate
>> ?boaters? (hate that term, a boater is a hat?)  Low and behold, they knew
>> the people with the black hulled stinkpot.   In the months after our
>> encounter with them, they?d run afoul of their home marina for non-payment
>> of fees and objectionable behaviour involving noise? then another marina
>> for non-payment for expensive cosmetic remodelling of their boat.  The
>> result of all this was that their boat had been legally seized from them.
>> 
>> Hurrumph, says I.  Yes, I feel a little guilty for being quietly pleased.
>> 
>> On a similar vein, last summer we witnessed a huge and fast powerboat
>> doing a full-on Rodney Dangerfield charging up Severn Sound blaring his
>> horn and near missing several boats as he weaved through the sunday
>> afternoon homeward bound fleet while towing a huge wake.   I caught the
>> name of his boat, and made a project of hunting it down in the local
>> marinas? PAINFUL PLEASURE was a tenant nearby.   I reported him to the
>> police with a detailed description of what had happened.  The police told
>> me they visited him and had a ?conversation? which they reckoned made an
>> impression.  I didn?t press for charges to be laid, but I could have.
>> 
>> Some months later, in my professional capacity as national distributor for
>> Epifanes marine coatings, I received a call from the same marina reporting
>> a client needing advice for a painting job he was doing.  The boat was near
>> enough for me to make a personal visit...  Guess who it was...
>> 
>> I helped him out with his issue and in the course of the inspection got to
>> know him a little. He was of course new to boat ownership and clearly loved
>> his monstrous powerboat.  I commented that I was a sailor and kept my boat
>> at the sailing club nearby? he murmured ?I don?t think sailors like me very
>> much?.   So I drew a breath and told him it was I who called the police on
>> him the previous summer, and told him why.   He apologized? clearly the
>> cops had indeed made an impression on him.    I believe this particular
>> inconsiderate boat operator is in the category of most of them? he just had
>> no idea what mayhem and danger he was out there? well now he knows.
>> 
>> Gordon Laco
>> 426 Surprise
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 2:12 AM, Wehicks via Public-List <
>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Send a picture of the crabby bottle. I would like to try.
>>> Walter.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 10:50 PM, Randy Katz via Public-List <
>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Greetings, 'Bergers,
>>>> 
>>>> Gordon's story below reminded me of a concern we're always a bit unsure
>>>> about. We seem plagued by noisy generators on nearby boats, as I'm sure
>>>> others have experienced. Watmough Bay on south Lopez Island, WA., a
>> couple
>>>> of weeks ago--Nearly all sailboats, ah, nice and quiet. Until another
>>>> sailboat-- :( --with its gen exhaust pointed right at us starts ripping
>>>> away... for 2 hours around dinner time.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm an adult, I can figure these things out, but I'm curious about the
>>>> response of others. Does one dare ask to the skipper how long such an
>>>> intrusion is expected to continue, by way of giving a hint? Is it
>>>> preferable to pull up anchor and move? Is it best even so to adopt a zen
>>>> attitude and endure till the end? When will modern electrical management
>>>> systems, LEDs, etc. become pervasive enough to reduce gen use? Not in my
>>>> lifetime, I'm afraid.
>>>> 
>>>> And then sometimes at 7 in the morning, too!
>>>> 
>>>> We often anchor far off from other vessels knowing this problem will
>> come
>>>> up. We go to the beautiful places for peace and quiet, not for
>> listening to
>>>> engines running on and on.
>>>> 
>>>> Any experiences or suggestions would be welcomed.
>>>> 
>>>> Many Thanks,
>>>> Randy Katz
>>>> #249 Simple Gifts
>>>> Seattle/Bellingham, WA
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 11:04:10 -0400
>>>> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
>>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>>>      <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>>> Subject: [Public-List] Cruising...
>>>> Message-ID: <89016B18-7D9F-478F-BC36-8B4C2C39B2FA at csolve.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>>>> 
>>>> So there we were on Friday morning? the usual tornado that are my
>> business
>>>> ventures seemed under control? so we decided to make it a long weekend
>> and
>>>> escape up the coast in the boat.
>>>> 
>>>> We loaded up with ice, food, treats and a ginger beer called ?Crabby?s?
>>>> we?ve become addicted to.
>>>> 
>>>> Severn Sound was under dead calm conditions so we motored away without
>>>> remorse about not sailing.  At 5.8 knots we got up to our favourite
>>>> anchorage in 2.5 hours.   Ya, it?s not sailing, but on the other hand
>>>> serious lounging at anchor...
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.alberg30.org_store_A30supporters.html&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=ouXu9RgAjPK88ofs6Pi9JpnEwObmTi-UxOIv9uRFX50&e=
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.alberg30.org_listinfo.cgi_public-2Dlist-2Dalberg30.org&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=Sr4s-zVBw0GRUk7DwYINulmp_sq906Ed-FUMmftz1B0&e=
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.alberg30.org_store_A30supporters.html&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=ouXu9RgAjPK88ofs6Pi9JpnEwObmTi-UxOIv9uRFX50&e=
>>> Please support them.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Public-List mailing list
>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.alberg30.org_listinfo.cgi_public-2Dlist-2Dalberg30.org&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=Sr4s-zVBw0GRUk7DwYINulmp_sq906Ed-FUMmftz1B0&e=
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:53:15 -0400
>> From: Andrew Johns <johnsab9 at gmail.com>
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>        <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] cabin top traveller
>> Message-ID:
>>        <CAM5xwU50m7d=Dj9Xggc_0H-SdH7TKXRjQW=
>> NAkqgz2YdxSx_CA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> 
>> The primary reason for a cabin top mounted traveler is to allow for a
>> decent bimini and dodger setup that can be used while sailing.
>> Additionally, it allows for extra room in the cockpit.
>> 
>> We have had a cabin top mounted traveler on #104 since 2002.  We have a
>> Garhauer traveler mounted on teak riser blocks over the rear of the sea
>> hood. In my experience, the masonite cored deck on the earlier boats is
>> plenty strong enough for a traveler.  No signs of distortion or stress
>> cracking.
>> 
>> The purchase on the mainsheet was increased to 6:1 in our setup.
>> Occasionally we use the cabin top winch to help sheet in when close-hauled.
>> 
>> A few things to keep in mind the force on the boom is not a single point
>> load, it's applied over the length of the boom with the load reducing as
>> you move farther out (providing you don't have a loose foot main).  Moving
>> the attachment point from the end to the middle would not double the stress
>> in the boom.  It would double the stress in the mainsheet but not the boom.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> Ecola #104
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 8:52 AM Don Campbell via Public-List <
>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Walter:
>>>     This is about your comment to go to a cabin top traveller. Really
>>> consider the forces you are changing when you think about doing that.
>>> Firstly: you change the moment of the force on the boom from now 14?6? to
>>> about half of that. That means you will double all the other force
>>> requirements for the track and blocks, gooseneck,  and boom. So if you
>> are
>>> now happy with the designed 4:1 on the main , you will have to go to at
>>> least 8:1 for the same pull on the sheet.  It will also mean you change
>> the
>>> forces on the boom, mast track,  and  the sail itself. In fact getting a
>>> method to hold the connection to the boom for the mainsheet blocks
>> without
>>> compromising boom strength and still able to withstand the extra forces
>> is
>>> a real challenge. When a boom breaks in half, it is not a very pretty
>>> situation with sail and boom end flapping around your head. Secondly: The
>>> cabin top has not been designed to take the upward force that this
>> proposed
>>> change will incur. While the builders have not known what fiberglass
>> would
>>> do, so they overbuilt things, changing the structural component to try to
>>> do this change was not a part of the design or serendipity that we have
>>> enjoyed with a strong hull (which is different from the cabin top and
>>> deck). Thirdly: you will change sail shape and have a leech that will
>>> always be open because you will lose control of the end of the boom, This
>>> will offer more opportunity for a luffing leech and that is not an easy
>>> sail for power.  Lastly, you will have made the boat not class legal and
>> so
>>> it can never be sold to anyone who might want to race her.
>>> 
>>>    I have no idea why one would want to change the traveller position,
>>> but if it is because the original equipment is slow, sticky or just
>>> awkward, then consider changing to a new track system and leave it where
>> it
>>> is now. Hardware manufacturers do a really good job now of making things
>> so
>>> they work in all conditions, and I know we have Albergs with new gear on
>>> them. I put Harken on #528 twenty  years ago now and I still like the
>>> system. I know others who have used Garhauer and they like that too.
>> Really
>>> consider the change at boom end. I am also sure that if Carl were alive
>>> today and designing boats, or even commenting on refits, he would be
>> using
>>> today?s hardware because it is functional , well built and safe.
>>> Don
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.alberg30.org_store_A30supporters.html&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=ouXu9RgAjPK88ofs6Pi9JpnEwObmTi-UxOIv9uRFX50&e=
>>> Please support them.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Public-List mailing list
>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.alberg30.org_listinfo.cgi_public-2Dlist-2Dalberg30.org&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=Sr4s-zVBw0GRUk7DwYINulmp_sq906Ed-FUMmftz1B0&e=
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> These businesses support your Association:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.alberg30.org_store_A30supporters.html&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=enM7ScFQvWrcekEYjndveTkrwasULNM_wPIJpHsl3qk&m=FF-G_qbWyHQlOAQ_1oz9VDF8Yck3QvrTuACWR8q_2Lk&s=ouXu9RgAjPK88ofs6Pi9JpnEwObmTi-UxOIv9uRFX50&e=
>> Please support them.
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>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> End of Public-List Digest, Vol 3902, Issue 1
>> ********************************************
>> 
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