[Public-List] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873, Issue 3
Daniel Swords
danielswords at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 23 16:19:57 PDT 2019
My boat had a lot of weather helm in winds above about 15 mph when I had a 155 % genoa. Since switching to a 110 % genoa (keeping the same mainsail) my boat is very well balanced with a full main, with the first reef in the main, and with two reefs in the main it has a very slight but totally manageable lee helm. Switching to a smaller jib (110%) was one of the best things I have done. Works for me but I always sail singlehanded and I don’t race.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [EXTERNAL] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873, Issue 1 (Gordon Laco)
2. Re: [EXTERNAL] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873, Issue 1 (Mike Lehman)
3. Re: [EXTERNAL] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873, Issue 1 (Gordon Laco)
4. Re: New mainsail... (Greg Hounsell)
5. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:34:16 -0400
From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Cc: "Greenhouse, Matthew A. (GSFC-6650)" <matt.greenhouse at nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] [EXTERNAL] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873,
Issue 1
Message-ID: <8ECDAAD6-8E27-4800-BC27-844F961E1CB7 at csolve.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Well that?s not true.... you?re describing sail trim; a different topic
G
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 23, 2019, at 5:30 PM, Greenhouse, Matthew A. (GSFC-6650) via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>
> Gordon ? If you have too much weather helm, it is because you are over trimming the main. It has nothing to do with age of the sail or outhaul etc. Your new sail will likely have tell tails on the leach. When the main is trimmed right, then they should stream back (aft). If they stream forward on the leeward side of the sail then you need the ease the sheet to get a neutral helm. If the sail is not full at the luff (mast) then that is fine.
>
> Friendship 295
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> On: 23 June 2019 16:05, "public-list-request at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org" <public-list-request at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org> wrote:
> Send Public-List mailing list submissions to
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> than "Re: Contents of Public-List digest..."
>
>
> Please do NOT include the entire digest in your reply!
> ======================================================
>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. New mainsail... (Gordon Laco)
> 2. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
> 3. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
> 4. Re: New mainsail... (Gordon Laco)
> 5. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:54:49 -0400
> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net<mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list at l
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:38:32 -0400
From: Mike Lehman <mlehman at gmail.com>
To: A30 Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] [EXTERNAL] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873,
Issue 1
Message-ID:
<CAApdQjqFQ2prHYT50bbwZU0CS7d1W_-ks8T+cb0WQTVJ58CqRw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Best main I ever had and was fast was an old, very flat, with most of the
camber forward. It blew to pieces in a race to Queenstown when it was
blowing 25 knots. I could point well and the boat did not have excessive
heel and was fast. I was sorry to see it rip to shreds.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 5:34 PM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> Well that?s not true.... you?re describing sail trim; a different topic
>
> G
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jun 23, 2019, at 5:30 PM, Greenhouse, Matthew A. (GSFC-6650) via
> Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >
> > Gordon ? If you have too much weather helm, it is because you are over
> trimming the main. It has nothing to do with age of the sail or outhaul
> etc. Your new sail will likely have tell tails on the leach. When the main
> is trimmed right, then they should stream back (aft). If they stream
> forward on the leeward side of the sail then you need the ease the sheet to
> get a neutral helm. If the sail is not full at the luff (mast) then that is
> fine.
> >
> > Friendship 295
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > On: 23 June 2019 16:05, "public-list-request at lists.alberg<mailto:
> public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org" <public-list-request at lists.alberg
> <mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org> wrote:
> > Send Public-List mailing list submissions to
> > public-list at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list at lists.alberg>30.org
> >
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> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.alberg30.org_listinfo.cgi_public-2Dlist-2Dalberg30.org&d=DwICAg&c=ApwzowJNAKKw3xye91w7BE1XMRKi2LN9kiMk5Csz9Zk&r=E8am16u4UMclZ2k1VCTqTFySgI54UVmSspvx_dDyxSVZNVy2G1wppYfOSwOF0blO&m=XB_M0R27aydjgYRbyQkp4UpeCdu80f1D0fAomz-G5fQ&s=LGwKvhJeMhOCaTkRp0Ne4CT1sXEpUnBCLLzhyJRqMdY&e=
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > public-list-request at lists.alberg<mailto:
> public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org
> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Public-List digest..."
> >
> >
> > Please do NOT include the entire digest in your reply!
> > ======================================================
> >
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. New mainsail... (Gordon Laco)
> > 2. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
> > 3. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
> > 4. Re: New mainsail... (Gordon Laco)
> > 5. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:54:49 -0400
> > From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net<mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>>
> > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > <public-list at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list at l
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 18:25:13 -0400
From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] [EXTERNAL] Public-List Digest, Vol 3873,
Issue 1
Message-ID: <CDEBBEB4-D442-4CE7-80DD-EF64B1BF4B6C at csolve.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
My Folkboat had an ancient cotton suit of sails... the main was superb but I never risked it in heavy air. It was a sort of pet
G
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 23, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Mike Lehman via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>
> Best main I ever had and was fast was an old, very flat, with most of the
> camber forward. It blew to pieces in a race to Queenstown when it was
> blowing 25 knots. I could point well and the boat did not have excessive
> heel and was fast. I was sorry to see it rip to shreds.
>
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 5:34 PM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>
>> Well that?s not true.... you?re describing sail trim; a different topic
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2019, at 5:30 PM, Greenhouse, Matthew A. (GSFC-6650) via
>> Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gordon ? If you have too much weather helm, it is because you are over
>> trimming the main. It has nothing to do with age of the sail or outhaul
>> etc. Your new sail will likely have tell tails on the leach. When the main
>> is trimmed right, then they should stream back (aft). If they stream
>> forward on the leeward side of the sail then you need the ease the sheet to
>> get a neutral helm. If the sail is not full at the luff (mast) then that is
>> fine.
>>>
>>> Friendship 295
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> On: 23 June 2019 16:05, "public-list-request at lists.alberg<mailto:
>> public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org" <public-list-request at lists.alberg
>> <mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org> wrote:
>>> Send Public-List mailing list submissions to
>>> public-list at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list at lists.alberg>30.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.alberg30.org_listinfo.cgi_public-2Dlist-2Dalberg30.org&d=DwICAg&c=ApwzowJNAKKw3xye91w7BE1XMRKi2LN9kiMk5Csz9Zk&r=E8am16u4UMclZ2k1VCTqTFySgI54UVmSspvx_dDyxSVZNVy2G1wppYfOSwOF0blO&m=XB_M0R27aydjgYRbyQkp4UpeCdu80f1D0fAomz-G5fQ&s=LGwKvhJeMhOCaTkRp0Ne4CT1sXEpUnBCLLzhyJRqMdY&e=
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> public-list-request at lists.alberg<mailto:
>> public-list-request at lists.alberg>30.org
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> public-list-owner at lists.alberg<mailto:
>> public-list-owner at lists.alberg>30.org
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Public-List digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Please do NOT include the entire digest in your reply!
>>> ======================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. New mainsail... (Gordon Laco)
>>> 2. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
>>> 3. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
>>> 4. Re: New mainsail... (Gordon Laco)
>>> 5. Re: New mainsail... (Michael Devonshire)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:54:49 -0400
>>> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net<mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg<mailto:public-list at l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> These businesses support your Association:
>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>> Please support them.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Public-List mailing list
>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
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>>
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
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> Please support them.
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 18:34:41 -0400
From: Greg Hounsell <greg.hounsell at gmail.com>
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] New mainsail...
Message-ID:
<CAF=smrhfTenX0ib5mruC8RKfObY0DU+i+MGmbMhr-QYxOEV4wQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thanks Gord!
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 4:44 PM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> Hello Michael.
>
> In basic principals, mainsails are made with a three-dimensional shape in
> them that is in the form of the classic aircraft wing ?airfoil? wing shape?
> rather just the top surface of the wing shape because the fabric the sail
> is made of has negligible thickness.
>
> When the sail is set and trimmed for the apparent wind, you can see its
> shape when you look up at it. You?ll see that there is fullness or curve
> in the sail and you?ll be able to see where the deepest part of that curve
> is. A ?good? sail which still retains the shape the sailmaker built into
> it, will have the deepest part of the curve somewhat further forward of the
> sail?s middle area. There will be a curve near the luff, or leading edge,
> then a long flat area aft fo the deepest part. This is the airfoil shape
> that means power.
>
> You can tweak the deepest part of the curve forward by increasing tension
> on the luff of the sail? this is done by increasing halyard tension, by
> pulling down on the downhaul under the gooseneck (this is why its important
> to have the gooseneck on a track) and by pulling down on the fabric of the
> leading edge of the sail from the tack (lower forward corner) using the
> ?Cunningham? (this adjustment was really developed by a guy of that name?)
>
> When the sail is in good condition, these tweaks will help get the best
> out of the sail? but sails don?t last forever. Dacron sailcloth is made
> with a resin that helps lock the warp and weft of the cloth in stability?
> but UV radiation and flogging breaks down the resin resulting in stretchier
> sail cloth? and that results in sails that are termed ?bagged out?.
>
> One symptom of a bagged out sail is that deepest part of the curve, the
> draft, that I mentioned above, moving aft. Once the sail deforms so that
> deepest part of the draft or curve is too far aft and instead of developing
> power to drive the boat forward, the sail ends up developing more heeling
> force that usable power. The result of this is that for a given wind
> speed, the boat heels over more? that means the weather helm required to
> keep her head down and on course increases, and that means that you?re
> sailing with more angle on the rudder than is desirable. If you feel a lot
> of ?weight? on the tiller, well that?s directly related to the drag the
> rudder is putting on the boat. The obvious cure is the ease the
> mainsail?s sheet to let the boat back on her feet a little,? but sailing
> with the sheet eased is not fast because the sail isn?t driving the boat
> like it should.
>
> Another negative development in an aging sail is that stretchiness I
> mentioned above that comes into the picture as the resin in the cloth is
> broken down. As the load on the sail increases in heavier air, the sail
> cloth stretches and INCREASES its fullness? exactly the opposite of what
> you want in order to control the boat. This exacerbates the problems being
> created by the draft of the sail moving aft as the sail ages and deforms?
>
> So how do you know if your main has these problems?
>
> First off, if your mainsail is more that ten years or so old, you can
> assume that it?s far past it?s prime with regard to shape. It is entirely
> possible that the sail is still strong, but with regard to shape it is
> shot? bagged out.
>
> Well you might say, I?m a cruising sailor and I don?t care so much about
> fine points of performance?. to that I would suggest that for cruising
> sailors good sails are more important than they are to racing sailors
> because cruising sailors are concerned with safety and seaworthiness rather
> than winning races. Sails with good powerful shapes will let the boat
> sail without drama in higher winds than bagged out sails? you?ll go to
> windward better, you?ll have to reef later, you?ll generally have a better
> safer sailing boat.
>
> There?s lots on line about this stuff, please feel free to ask as you get
> into it?
>
> Gordon Laco
> #426 Surprise
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 23, 2019, at 1:32 PM, Michael Devonshire <
> Devonshire at jhpokorny.com> wrote:
> >
> > Gordon, as a ?newbie? here, can you give me a hint about how to tell
> if/when a mating is bagged?
> > Thanks
> > Mike D
> > Pickle 619
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Jun 23, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Gordon Laco via Public-List <
> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Gang,
> >>
> >> I must be becoming an adult?
> >>
> >> Last year I bit the bullet and bought a new genoa. A new sail is a
> wonderful thing, but sadly I didn?t notice much of a change in SURPRISE?s
> performance. Silly me, I realized later that our main was long past the
> blush of youth and it?s the main getting bagged out that leads to heavy
> helm, and that leads to a slow boat upwind.
> >>
> >> So this spring I ordered a new main. Now I?ve got a one year old genny
> and a brand new main. I?ve finally broken the silly schedule I was on
> where I always had one old sail and one new one. We bent the main on last
> night? can?t wait to take it out for its first sail.
> >>
> >> A new sail is truly a wonderful thing?
> >>
> >> Gordon Laco
> >> #426 Surprise
> >>
> >> PS - I can?t remember how many times I?ve been told by A30 sailors that
> our boats have mains that are too big, and that is why their boats are
> heavy on the helm. I met one fellow who told me he was using an old Dragon
> main and he figured THAT, with it?s short foot, was a better sail. No, no
> no. The reason for heavy helm is either simply slack outhauls, incorrect
> mast rake, or bagged a bagged out mainsail that needs to be replaced.
> There?s no reason why an A30 shouldn?t be sweet-sailing with light helm?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> These businesses support your Association:
> >>
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> >>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 23:08:34 +0000
From: Michael Devonshire <Devonshire at jhpokorny.com>
To: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
Cc: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] New mainsail...
Message-ID: <FBAFEC94-FE8B-4B18-902E-17932E014B41 at jhpokorny.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Gordon (AKA Sensei!)
I could not have gotten a clearer or more precise illustration anywhere. A thousand thanks- and a smart bottle of Goslings for you if ever we meet!
Mike
Pickle #619
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 23, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net<mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>> wrote:
Hello Michael.
In basic principals, mainsails are made with a three-dimensional shape in them that is in the form of the classic aircraft wing ?airfoil? wing shape? rather just the top surface of the wing shape because the fabric the sail is made of has negligible thickness.
When the sail is set and trimmed for the apparent wind, you can see its shape when you look up at it. You?ll see that there is fullness or curve in the sail and you?ll be able to see where the deepest part of that curve is. A ?good? sail which still retains the shape the sailmaker built into it, will have the deepest part of the curve somewhat further forward of the sail?s middle area. There will be a curve near the luff, or leading edge, then a long flat area aft fo the deepest part. This is the airfoil shape that means power.
You can tweak the deepest part of the curve forward by increasing tension on the luff of the sail? this is done by increasing halyard tension, by pulling down on the downhaul under the gooseneck (this is why its important to have the gooseneck on a track) and by pulling down on the fabric of the leading edge of the sail from the tack (lower forward corner) using the ?Cunningham? (this adjustment was really developed by a guy of that name?)
When the sail is in good condition, these tweaks will help get the best out of the sail? but sails don?t last forever. Dacron sailcloth is made with a resin that helps lock the warp and weft of the cloth in stability? but UV radiation and flogging breaks down the resin resulting in stretchier sail cloth? and that results in sails that are termed ?bagged out?.
One symptom of a bagged out sail is that deepest part of the curve, the draft, that I mentioned above, moving aft. Once the sail deforms so that deepest part of the draft or curve is too far aft and instead of developing power to drive the boat forward, the sail ends up developing more heeling force that usable power. The result of this is that for a given wind speed, the boat heels over more? that means the weather helm required to keep her head down and on course increases, and that means that you?re sailing with more angle on the rudder than is desirable. If you feel a lot of ?weight? on the tiller, well that?s directly related to the drag the rudder is putting on the boat. The obvious cure is the ease the mainsail?s sheet to let the boat back on her feet a little,? but sailing with the sheet eased is not fast because the sail isn?t driving the boat like it should.
Another negative development in an aging sail is that stretchiness I mentioned above that comes into the picture as the resin in the cloth is broken down. As the load on the sail increases in heavier air, the sail cloth stretches and INCREASES its fullness? exactly the opposite of what you want in order to control the boat. This exacerbates the problems being created by the draft of the sail moving aft as the sail ages and deforms?
So how do you know if your main has these problems?
First off, if your mainsail is more that ten years or so old, you can assume that it?s far past it?s prime with regard to shape. It is entirely possible that the sail is still strong, but with regard to shape it is shot? bagged out.
Well you might say, I?m a cruising sailor and I don?t care so much about fine points of performance?. to that I would suggest that for cruising sailors good sails are more important than they are to racing sailors because cruising sailors are concerned with safety and seaworthiness rather than winning races. Sails with good powerful shapes will let the boat sail without drama in higher winds than bagged out sails? you?ll go to windward better, you?ll have to reef later, you?ll generally have a better safer sailing boat.
There?s lots on line about this stuff, please feel free to ask as you get into it?
Gordon Laco
#426 Surprise
On Jun 23, 2019, at 1:32 PM, Michael Devonshire <Devonshire at jhpokorny.com<mailto:Devonshire at jhpokorny.com>> wrote:
Gordon, as a ?newbie? here, can you give me a hint about how to tell if/when a mating is bagged?
Thanks
Mike D
Pickle 619
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 23, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Gordon Laco via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org<mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>> wrote:
Hello Gang,
I must be becoming an adult?
Last year I bit the bullet and bought a new genoa. A new sail is a wonderful thing, but sadly I didn?t notice much of a change in SURPRISE?s performance. Silly me, I realized later that our main was long past the blush of youth and it?s the main getting bagged out that leads to heavy helm, and that leads to a slow boat upwind.
So this spring I ordered a new main. Now I?ve got a one year old genny and a brand new main. I?ve finally broken the silly schedule I was on where I always had one old sail and one new one. We bent the main on last night? can?t wait to take it out for its first sail.
A new sail is truly a wonderful thing?
Gordon Laco
#426 Surprise
PS - I can?t remember how many times I?ve been told by A30 sailors that our boats have mains that are too big, and that is why their boats are heavy on the helm. I met one fellow who told me he was using an old Dragon main and he figured THAT, with it?s short foot, was a better sail. No, no no. The reason for heavy helm is either simply slack outhauls, incorrect mast rake, or bagged a bagged out mainsail that needs to be replaced. There?s no reason why an A30 shouldn?t be sweet-sailing with light helm?
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