[Public-List] Follow up question on outhaul tension
Don Campbell
dk.campbell at xplornet.ca
Tue Apr 7 08:01:26 PDT 2020
Richard:
My first comment is to ask what ratio your winch is? Then if you
have 2:1 on the line, that doubles your winch ratio. I suspect you are
well over 14:1 and so you should have no trouble with power to adjust
the foot length. That is certainly one way to rig things. I chose to
make it so I could adjust things with one hand and without a winch, in
at least 20 knots of wind at the bridge deck. To flatten the sail you
will be using a combination of outhaul control and mainsheet tension to
lengthen the leech and foot at the same time and take as much draft out
of all the sail as you can, not just the draft in the shelf and foot
area. I would not consider putting a shelf into a new sail, as a
comment there.
How one chooses to sail these boats is a matter of experience, i
think. If the object is to go
------ Original Message ------
From: "Carla via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
Cc: "Carla" <hazlegrove at aol.com>
Sent: 2020-04-07 9:16:50 AM
Subject: [Public-List] Follow up question on outhaul tension
>Don,
>You mention a 14/1 purchase on your outhaul which begs the question regarding my setup and if I am able to get sufficient tension on the outhaul.
>
>When I purchased Quest from Jim Municci 20 years ago, the spare parts included two custom machined sleeve boxes for either end of the boom that I had installed by Annapolis Rigging. These lead the outhaul and two reef points through the mast down to blocks on the mast base and back to the cabin top winches and clutches. So I guess I’m getting 2/1 outhaul purchase with a small amount of friction in the turning blocks. When I winch the outhaul it appears to do a pretty good job eliminating the relatively deep shelf that was designed into the sail. But it’s nowhere near the purchase of your setup. I occasionally race but mostly cruise and would typically reef the main to manage heavier winds and control weather helm. I also have a flattening reef in the sail that I have used it a few times over the years which appears to get to the same place with less tension.
>
>So, is it sufficient to simply tension the outhaul until the draft in the foot is eliminated or am I missing something. I might consider a simple block attached to the clew to increase purchase if needed.
>
>I would appreciate your thoughts.
>Thanks,
>
>Richard Hazlegrove
>Quest 433
>Mobjack Bay, VA.
>
>> On Apr 6, 2020, at 4:05 PM, public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
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>> 1. Re: Loose Footed vs Bolt Rope Mainsail (Clay Pass)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:28:00 -0400
>> From: Clay Pass <clay.q.pass at gmail.com>
>> To: Don Campbell <dk.campbell at xplornet.ca>, Alberg 30 Public List --
>> open to all <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Loose Footed vs Bolt Rope Mainsail
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAKQ=Ps5_m1BzBQYr1iNEjpr0j6QN7ZgFwhVZ=9-cPGWrh6V60g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Sounds like good advice! Thanks Don and Gordon!
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 12:26 PM Don Campbell via Public-List <
>>>public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would agree with Gord completely, especially that cruisers get
>>> into more situations where they need the best possible sails to get
>>> home. That means that the cruiser needs to know the controls on those
>>> sails and how to use them to their maximum. There are at least 9
>>> controls on a foresail and many more on the main. The object of course
>>> is to keep the draft to the depth of its design and keep it in the
>>> position fore to aft in the design for both sails to maximize
>>> performance from both sails acting together. Your first job when you are
>>> buying a sail is to define and specify those details , (depth and
>>> position of draft) for the winds that you sail in to your sail maker.
>>> For example, I have a 14:1 outhaul control on my boom, and that is
>>> for a bolt rope main. I have really good control of the foot in the
>>> groove, and hence control of tension in the sail surface towards the
>>> clew whatever the wind force. I would want more for a loose footed sail.
>>> The real difficulty comes in overpowering winds, and that is when one
>>> needs to really flatten sails. With loose footed sails that is much more
>>> difficult and I do not want a luffing leach.
>>> I can give you one example of a good sail maker who was commissioned
>>> to make a loose footed sail for hull 603. The owner at the time was an
>>> engineer and a teacher. He bent the sail on and could not get any power
>>> out of the new sail because he could not overcome the weather helm, so
>>> called the maker for assistance. The sail maker went out two times to
>>> get the owner set up and the boat moving, which he accomplished to his
>>> satisfaction. The owner was not still not able to get the boat moving on
>>> future trips so the sail maker bought the sail back, because he wanted
>>> to buy a C & C Corvette, and the sail would fit that rig. That boat
>>> acquisition did not happen as he bought a Shark! However, that sail is
>>> now on a Corvette and that owner is enjoying it on that boat. There is
>>> no comparison on the designs of those two hulls or rigs.
>>> For these reasons, and the issue of helm, which is a bit worse than
>>> it might be because the rig was designed as a fractional rig with the
>>> mast more forward than it is, I would not deviate from what works for
>>> most of us for the last 50 + years, and that is a bolt rope in the foot.
>>> Don Campbell
>>> For sail trim, I suggest Dr. Stuart Walker's A Manual of Sail Trim, or
>>> the materials from North Sails on trim. These are books, which you have
>>> time to read right now, and if need be, take them on the boat if you
>>> need to try things !
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Gordon Laco via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all"
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Cc: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net>
>>> Sent: 2020-04-06 11:08:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Loose Footed vs Bolt Rope Mainsail
>>>
>>>> Hello Clay -
>>>>
>>>> A loose footed main is a nice thing in some types of boat, but not in
>>> ours. The extra depth one can put into the mainsail (deeper draft = more
>>> power) is not useable because of the heavy helm it causes.
>>>>
>>>> You?ll find no benefit, furling may be a little tougher. Your sailmaker
>>> is correct with the comment about no loss of strength, but you?ll need a
>>> stronger outhaul? you?ll need power to pull the sail flat enough to be
>>> effective? and once you?ve got it there, you?ll see ?hey wait a minute, the
>>> foot is right along the boom anyway?'
>>>>
>>>> Loose footed is cheaper and less work for the sail maker? if they?re
>>> promoting that type of foot, it should come with a reduction in price.
>>>>
>>>> You don?t race so no point in discussing it would be an illegal sail.
>>>>
>>>> I?m one of those who both cruise and race? and I?ve been known to pound
>>> the table spilling other people?s beer expounding that performance is
>>> really more of interest to cruisers than racers. A yacht away on a cruise
>>> is much more likely to be in a situation where she?s got to do her best to
>>> get you home. Crappy sails and rigging ?good enough for cruising? are
>>> really not good enough at all when the chips are down?.
>>>>
>>>> Did you hear the rising violins? I?m pounding my desk now...
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>> 426 Surprise
>>>>http://www.gordonlaco.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 6, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Clay Pass via Public-List <
>>>public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am having a new mainsail made by Bacon's and the issue of loose foot
>>> vs.
>>>>> bolt rope has come up. Given that I am not racing, but planning on
>>>>> cruising exclusively, are there recommendations regarding a loose
>>> footed
>>>>> sail? Most that I read online recommends the loose foot design and in
>>> fact
>>>>> Bacon's says that it is rare that they make any bolt rope sails any
>>> more.
>>>>> I was initially concerned that the loose foot may not be as robust
>>> under
>>>>> heavy weather conditions, but it seems that many say they are
>>> equivalent.
>>>>> Is there any reason not to have the loose foot?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Clay Pass
>>>>> #449 Seeing Deep
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