[Public-List] Follow up question on outhaul tension
Don Campbell
dk.campbell at xplornet.ca
Tue Apr 7 08:10:00 PDT 2020
Richard:
The first thing I would ask is what is the ratio of your winch? I
suspect is is at least 10:1 and if you have a 3 part system with the
rigging from clew to winch, then that doubles the winch ratio, and you
probably do have much more than 14:1.
To control draft in the main to flatten the sail is to change the
slot profile and depower the rig, while maintaining some sail shape to
give optimum (hull) speed. This situation is frequently met when winds
are gusty and variable. You need a full sail for the lighter air and
don't want to reef for the short time the gust is there. So you want
controls that allow for fast and easy adjustment. I chose to arrange
that so I could use one hand, under any wind up to 20 knots and at the
bridge deck. It is not just draft at the foot but draft in the whole
sail you are trying to control to flatten a sail. (By the way, I would
not put a shelf into a new sail). To flatten the mainsail and remove
some draft, and perhaps move it a bit aft, on our boats, you will use a
combination of outhaul and mainsheet tension to lengthen both the foot
and leech. You may have to loosen the leech line if you have one. If
you have room between the black bands you may also lower the boom on
the mast or use a cunningham on the luff to shorten that distance as
well. This is one place where draft tapes are a great aid to seeing the
changes so they should go on all sails, especially for cruisers too. On
some boats the first thing you would do to flatten a sail is add bend
to the mast and trim the mainsheet.
To control helm if it is there, the balance of effort between sails
is off, and there is too much power aft. To offset that, move weight aft
(but not to the very back of the boat) or move the center of effort
forward, by letting the main off on the traveller. The CoE of the main
will move forward on the arc of the movement of the boom and thus the
combined CoE will move forward too. The sail shape will remain constant
if you do not change the sheet tension. You will need to adjust the
jibsheet to maintain the slot and perhaps bear off a few degrees. If you
do release the mainsheet , then you will raise the foot of the sail and
add depth to the sail by doing that, which was just what we were trying
to avoid. Again I suggest Walker's book, A Manual of Sail Trim.
As far as controlling the boat in bigger winds, there are several
ways to do that. If one is racing, then time is of the essence, and the
difference between fast and almost fast is how few mistakes you make
relative to the next boat. If you are cruising, then it is your schedule
against the weather and your designed plan. I find that reefing can be a
tough choice if you start with a full main and then have to go out of
the cockpit to effect that change. Rigging for a reef in the cockpit
takes some planning and should be in place when sailing. Roller furlers
are furlers, not reefing tools and sail changes in big winds are not
fun.
One of the first lessons we were taught when canoe tripping was to
make camp no later than 4:00 pm in the afternoon, so you had time to
have a good meal, relax and set things up for the night without pressure
and then you had a good sleep ready for the next day. I find that a good
plan for cruising too. Thus the choice of sails is important to begin
with. Low aspect ratio sails are powerful but not efficient for pointing
because of their design. We are handicapped to begin with and not our
choice! That said, I start my plans with a 165 and full main, - up to
about 15 knots. If there is a building wind, then I usually chose to
start with a 135 and full main, and will take that combination up to
about 20 knots. After that , it is usually easiest to just drop the main
and sail with the foresail only, but that decision is based on what
others are doing as well and my position relative to them if I am
racing, and what my position is relative to my trip plan is if I am
cruising. If I am going home from the race, I use the same combinations
as above, unless the crew demands a more relaxed ride and then the 135
is the sail on the front. The power of a sailplan is determined by the
foresail as it gives 180% of the power of the main.
Don
------ Original Message ------
From: "Carla via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
Cc: "Carla" <hazlegrove at aol.com>
Sent: 2020-04-07 9:16:50 AM
Subject: [Public-List] Follow up question on outhaul tension
>Don,
>You mention a 14/1 purchase on your outhaul which begs the question regarding my setup and if I am able to get sufficient tension on the outhaul.
>
>When I purchased Quest from Jim Municci 20 years ago, the spare parts included two custom machined sleeve boxes for either end of the boom that I had installed by Annapolis Rigging. These lead the outhaul and two reef points through the mast down to blocks on the mast base and back to the cabin top winches and clutches. So I guess I’m getting 2/1 outhaul purchase with a small amount of friction in the turning blocks. When I winch the outhaul it appears to do a pretty good job eliminating the relatively deep shelf that was designed into the sail. But it’s nowhere near the purchase of your setup. I occasionally race but mostly cruise and would typically reef the main to manage heavier winds and control weather helm. I also have a flattening reef in the sail that I have used it a few times over the years which appears to get to the same place with less tension.
>
>So, is it sufficient to simply tension the outhaul until the draft in the foot is eliminated or am I missing something. I might consider a simple block attached to the clew to increase purchase if needed.
>
>I would appreciate your thoughts.
>Thanks,
>
>Richard Hazlegrove
>Quest 433
>Mobjack Bay, VA.
>
>> On Apr 6, 2020, at 4:05 PM, public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
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>> 1. Re: Loose Footed vs Bolt Rope Mainsail (Clay Pass)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:28:00 -0400
>> From: Clay Pass <clay.q.pass at gmail.com>
>> To: Don Campbell <dk.campbell at xplornet.ca>, Alberg 30 Public List --
>> open to all <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Loose Footed vs Bolt Rope Mainsail
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAKQ=Ps5_m1BzBQYr1iNEjpr0j6QN7ZgFwhVZ=9-cPGWrh6V60g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Sounds like good advice! Thanks Don and Gordon!
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 12:26 PM Don Campbell via Public-List <
>>>public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would agree with Gord completely, especially that cruisers get
>>> into more situations where they need the best possible sails to get
>>> home. That means that the cruiser needs to know the controls on those
>>> sails and how to use them to their maximum. There are at least 9
>>> controls on a foresail and many more on the main. The object of course
>>> is to keep the draft to the depth of its design and keep it in the
>>> position fore to aft in the design for both sails to maximize
>>> performance from both sails acting together. Your first job when you are
>>> buying a sail is to define and specify those details , (depth and
>>> position of draft) for the winds that you sail in to your sail maker.
>>> For example, I have a 14:1 outhaul control on my boom, and that is
>>> for a bolt rope main. I have really good control of the foot in the
>>> groove, and hence control of tension in the sail surface towards the
>>> clew whatever the wind force. I would want more for a loose footed sail.
>>> The real difficulty comes in overpowering winds, and that is when one
>>> needs to really flatten sails. With loose footed sails that is much more
>>> difficult and I do not want a luffing leach.
>>> I can give you one example of a good sail maker who was commissioned
>>> to make a loose footed sail for hull 603. The owner at the time was an
>>> engineer and a teacher. He bent the sail on and could not get any power
>>> out of the new sail because he could not overcome the weather helm, so
>>> called the maker for assistance. The sail maker went out two times to
>>> get the owner set up and the boat moving, which he accomplished to his
>>> satisfaction. The owner was not still not able to get the boat moving on
>>> future trips so the sail maker bought the sail back, because he wanted
>>> to buy a C & C Corvette, and the sail would fit that rig. That boat
>>> acquisition did not happen as he bought a Shark! However, that sail is
>>> now on a Corvette and that owner is enjoying it on that boat. There is
>>> no comparison on the designs of those two hulls or rigs.
>>> For these reasons, and the issue of helm, which is a bit worse than
>>> it might be because the rig was designed as a fractional rig with the
>>> mast more forward than it is, I would not deviate from what works for
>>> most of us for the last 50 + years, and that is a bolt rope in the foot.
>>> Don Campbell
>>> For sail trim, I suggest Dr. Stuart Walker's A Manual of Sail Trim, or
>>> the materials from North Sails on trim. These are books, which you have
>>> time to read right now, and if need be, take them on the boat if you
>>> need to try things !
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Gordon Laco via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all"
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Cc: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net>
>>> Sent: 2020-04-06 11:08:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Loose Footed vs Bolt Rope Mainsail
>>>
>>>> Hello Clay -
>>>>
>>>> A loose footed main is a nice thing in some types of boat, but not in
>>> ours. The extra depth one can put into the mainsail (deeper draft = more
>>> power) is not useable because of the heavy helm it causes.
>>>>
>>>> You?ll find no benefit, furling may be a little tougher. Your sailmaker
>>> is correct with the comment about no loss of strength, but you?ll need a
>>> stronger outhaul? you?ll need power to pull the sail flat enough to be
>>> effective? and once you?ve got it there, you?ll see ?hey wait a minute, the
>>> foot is right along the boom anyway?'
>>>>
>>>> Loose footed is cheaper and less work for the sail maker? if they?re
>>> promoting that type of foot, it should come with a reduction in price.
>>>>
>>>> You don?t race so no point in discussing it would be an illegal sail.
>>>>
>>>> I?m one of those who both cruise and race? and I?ve been known to pound
>>> the table spilling other people?s beer expounding that performance is
>>> really more of interest to cruisers than racers. A yacht away on a cruise
>>> is much more likely to be in a situation where she?s got to do her best to
>>> get you home. Crappy sails and rigging ?good enough for cruising? are
>>> really not good enough at all when the chips are down?.
>>>>
>>>> Did you hear the rising violins? I?m pounding my desk now...
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>> 426 Surprise
>>>>http://www.gordonlaco.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 6, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Clay Pass via Public-List <
>>>public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am having a new mainsail made by Bacon's and the issue of loose foot
>>> vs.
>>>>> bolt rope has come up. Given that I am not racing, but planning on
>>>>> cruising exclusively, are there recommendations regarding a loose
>>> footed
>>>>> sail? Most that I read online recommends the loose foot design and in
>>> fact
>>>>> Bacon's says that it is rare that they make any bolt rope sails any
>>> more.
>>>>> I was initially concerned that the loose foot may not be as robust
>>> under
>>>>> heavy weather conditions, but it seems that many say they are
>>> equivalent.
>>>>> Is there any reason not to have the loose foot?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Clay Pass
>>>>> #449 Seeing Deep
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