[Public-List] Alberg 30 Sail Plan

Wed Mar 17 21:12:55 PDT 2021

    On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 11:11:23 PM CDT, Dave Yamakuchi <dyamakuchi at yahoo.com> wrote:  

That one guy at the antique car club asking around about the suspension kits, eh?  :-)
Kris: I found a 36lb 55AH AGM from SigmasTek that look like they'll fit at least four per side in the existing, original carpentry of Aquila's v-berth. Maybe six. IDK. I've got two now. I was wondering how many I might try weight wise in there. :-)  Maybe I'll try two more. Also six or eight group 31's (I have six now) to install in the motor well.   Plus the 'original' two oddball batteries under the saloon, maybe. I come up with a few hundred Amp-hours of 12V Lead in exchange for a motor, trans, 12' long x 2" diameter steel exhaust pipe, muffler and tailpipe, 20lbs of plumbing and hoses, and gas tanks (maybe.)  It's about a wash weight wise. I think.  But location location location...right?  Thanks for all the awesome info amigo.

Stephen G:  Minn-Kota told me '2lb' of motor for every 100lbs of boat (displacement.) It worked out to ~105A of 12V (~1.7hp) for an 11,000lb displacement.  And it's not _supposed_ to go fast, I don't think. I looked at two '112lb' 12V motors @52A each, originally. Also considered a cluster of three for some margin. Custom block on the bracket.  Run on one and go way longer, plus have two backups or for 'boost.'  Or whatever. In the end I found three 50lb units and a smaller 40lb to mount on the toe-rail, off of Craigslist. Plus a 6hp 1980's SeaKing 'plan B' and a bracket. Maybe plan A even. Depending.
    The Teslas use lots of little lithium cells in series, for a much higher voltage and lower current, and multiphase AC motors, with frequency drives type control, as I understand it.  And they do go fast, if you want.  It's always been more efficient in power distribution for industrial motors too, going higher voltage. They all do it basically the same way. Lower current, smaller wires, which is nice for the required gage of the motor's windings. plus wiring to the panel is smaller. Plus figure copper is even heavier than iron, too.  I was surprised how much that #000 weighed.  It's a half a pound per foot.  Go higher voltage.

However, everyone, please consider: There's many subtle flavors of the Lithium chemistry, so it's tricky to make generalizations, but _pure_ Lithium metal, you might say, sort of, well, it explodes on contact with water...OK?  It's potentially quite 'exothermic' so they say. Just, you know, FYI... :-)  I'm not sure Tesla contains their Lithium batteries in fiberglass and plywood either, if you catch my drift.
They use sealed lead acid in emergency backup lighting and public address systems for a reason.  The sulfuric is 22%.  The rest is water.  Some glass fiber mesh too maybe, but not much by weight. As displacement goes it's not unworkable, it seems.  You can mount them in any orientation too, most of them...

Seriously though, last year mostly Aquila just waited for my dog Sloopy and I to show up on Fridays. All week she sat. Every week.  In the summer sun. Watthours and Watthours of sun just fading her paint.

I got the 47lb Honda 2200W too.  3 horse with a single handle.

Perhaps not everyone sees it this way. That's OK. There's a lot of variables.  I really appreciate everyone's thoughts!  I'll send pics... Thanks again everyone!

~Dave (and Sloopy, pictured :-) )

   On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 4:39:22 PM CDT, Kris Coward via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:  

To speak to the point of changing the balance by going electric: I
actually sprang for the added cost of longer power lines for the
electric motor so I could move the weight of the batteries further
forward (and therefore also move the centre of gravity forward a bit).

If the angle between the boot stripe and the waterline (and the cockpit
being able to almost drain properly through the scuppers at its forward
end) are any indication, I think that the change is much closer to what
Alberg had in mind for the design, than how Candy Cane had sat in the
water for the preceding 4 decades :P

I will readily concede though, that range under power is much lower with
the electric, unless I bring along a genset -- but then I've never had
enough engine reliability with gas to have ever felt like I've lost out
on anything there.

Cheers,
Kris

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 08:22:17PM +0000, Don Campbell via Public-List wrote:
> Hi Dave:
>      Many of us who have Alberg 30's have them because they are a one design
> boat. Because of that one design factor, we know how they sail and what to
> expect of them as sailing  boats. Your comment to Rolph was that you wanted
> to learn to sail well on a boat that does sail well. Whatever you do with
> batteries and ballast changes, you are going to change the balance on the
> boat (CoE and CLR) and whatever that does, is not what Carl Alberg had in
> mind for this design. This design was a product of his experience on the
> North Sea, a fairly rough water area that requires a real measure of safety
> in the design.  Those changes you propose will mean that you have changed
> the boat from one that sails well now to an unknown quantity, which may be
> difficult to sail well for any of us who know how to sail this boat well. As
> boats go, this is already a heavy boat at 9,000 lbs dry weight and more like
> 10,000 lbs or more with water, fuel, oil in the motor, cooling water in the
> motor, safety gear, sails, cushions, ice in the icebox,  other supplies, AND
> CREW.
>    That change to batteries will also change Ted Brewer's capsize rating
> which has Alberg 30's as one of the safest boats for seaworthiness on record
> for a 30 foot boat.  You are also sailing on one of the Great Lakes.  Lake
> Michigan has claimed several lives recently in the Chicago-Mack race, and
> the wave heights are often underestimated in these waters. Lake Ontario has
> had 23 foot waves measured by The Canada Center for Inland Waters on their
> Coast Guard ships in the eastern lake. You might want to consider that
> Alberg has considered some factors of rough water and safety in the design
> you now have that is not modified.
>    You alluded to Yves Gelinas , who did remove the stationary engine for a
> circumnavigation, but he added a long stainless steel arm to the port side
> of his boat to take a small outboard, which he does carry aboard to get in
> and out of harbours. He needed space for food storage.
>    `Whatever your demand for batteries, and lead keel, you will be in a
> better position financially in the end to buy a boat with a lead keel now
> and sell the Alberg as an Alberg. As Mike says, you can never charge what
> you may need for propulsion and those other needs from solar cells with any
> security for timing and without changing balance again, and compromising
> safety with the encumberances on the deck for both ease of movement and
> raising the center of gravity, not to mention the obstructed vision for
> sailing.
>    In my opinion, you will never have a boat that sails well with these
> proposed changes within this hull.
> Don Campbell
> 
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Dave Yamakuchi via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> To: "Public-List at lists.alberg30.org" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Cc: "Dave Yamakuchi" <dyamakuchi at yahoo.com>
> Sent: 2021-03-15 3:25:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Alberg 30 Sail Plan
> 
> > Hi All,
> > Wow!  Thanks everybody for all the great insight, and advice.
> > 
> > 
> > Mike L.: Thank you, thank you.  That's _exactly_ the kind of info I'm looking for. 1200lbs of batteries. Like carrying a crew of six. Lead or Lithium BTW? Where were they mounted...do you know?  :-)
> > 
> > 
> > Mike M.:  You make a good point.  I honestly don't want to ditch the fuel tanks, nor will I likely move them, even though they are in a rather poor location.  A gallon of gasoline stores a hell of a lot more energy than a gallon of battery.  Period.  Pound for pound is no contest either.One gallon of gas has the energy of 18 sticks of dynamite, I'm told.
> > 
> > The recharge is via multiple methods.  For 'maintenance' a small-ish solar array. I use one '25W' panel now. It fully charges an empty 35lb 55AH AGM in a few 'typical' Chicago days, enough for about three pots of coffee I've found. I was surprised to discover that coffee maker is rated 900W!  There are three more panels, currently stowed inside the cabin.  I'll probably mount at least that many more permanently...IDK. I get out once a week if I'm lucky. I'd use the batteries more for the coffee than the motor too I think.  :-)  A small Honda 2200W genny (~47lbs, 'EU2200i') and maybe even a spare 35lb 1000W just in case. Very efficient on fuel. But slow charging lead is always the best way. Slow charge w/solar, sharp cutoff to trickle charge.  Lead batteries last longest like that.  And keeping them fully charged.  I'll be happy to post pics and data when the time comes if there's interest.
> > 
> > What Aquila came with when I bought her is two heavy-duty stainless 20gal 'saddle bag' type tanks, under the aft end of the cockpit bench seats. I guess they ditched the one fiberglass tank?  IDK. They take up half the space under the seats, and they're heavy as hell when they're full. You can feel it in how she sits in the water.  ...I think I'm using the term 'lazarette' correctly in describing the tanks' location.  Please excuse my landlubbery if I'm not.
> > Rolf: The Hull ID is '64, but the title says '65.  IDK.  I appreciate the "One Design" philosophy, but honestly, I'm not in this for racing or resale value.  On my mooring budget, and with the amenities I'd like, I already want big batteries for more practical reasons. Plus I wouldn't mind to learn to sail (well)... On a boat that sails correctly, naturally.  :-)
> > 
> > The Graymarine catalog that came with it called out the engine and transmission combo at 419lbs IIRC. It has decent mechanical drawings too.  Aquila's is the variation with the maximum number of ginormous solid steel connecting brackets.  It's a beast.  I got parts from a forklift engine parts supplier last time. I'll try and find a contact/email if anyone is interested. I want to say that Graymarine matches a certain 'Continental.' Maybe I'm mistaken, It's been a few years.  I've looked now, briefly, and can't spot the catalog right at the moment,but it'll turn up and I'll post some images to the group. It's generally a good motor, I agree. It probably runs too, but, no. Previous owner 'rebuilt' it, and then I 'rebuilt' it again in '13.  Did a couple valve springs on the water. It's been sitting too long now. Electric is the right answer here.
> > 
> > I thought I read somewhere one of the A30 'circumnavigators' had pulled their motor first for weight.  This isn't heresy.  60 years hence electric motors have come a long way. I watched a youtube video of someone ...  you don't want to know what they did to that boat. But I'm particularly interested in what you might think Carl Alberg would say should _improve_ her handling.
> > 
> > Here's what I know about Aquila's journey. She was Moored on can #1 in Montrose Harbor, Chicago from 1972 until 2012 when I bought her.  She'd changed hands a few times, but always to a current crew member until me. In '13 I got a finger dock at the same harbor, after which I unstepped her mast and put her in a slip on the Little Calumet river for the summer of '14.  Then she went on stands until last year, when I brought her to Burnham Harbor in Chicago where she'll be this summer again.  She needs a lot of work.  But she's still generally pretty solid.
> > Gordon:  Thanks for your very knowledgeable advice.  I am strongly reconsidering the ballast replacement entirely, based on those particular difficulties you mention.  I saw some other A30s have had problems with the ballast glass de-laminating (see pics below from the thread:  1967 Alberg 30 Bilge Rot / Keel ballast exposed - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums, below ), and IF that happens to Aquila, then crossing bridges, and all that...
> > 
> > 
> > Anyway, thanks again everyone, even if you didn't even respond, just for taking the time to think about my humble situation.  I'll do my best to keep the group posted.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > Dave
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-- 
Kris Coward                    http://unripe.melon.org/
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