[Public-List] electric drive
gewhite at crosslink.net
gewhite at crosslink.net
Sun Mar 21 15:48:00 PDT 2021
Electric drive has been used for quite a long time to drive ships.
The problem of course is getting the electricity. I served in the
engine room on a Socony-Vacuum tanker in the 1950s running coastwise
from Beaumont, Texas to either Paulsboro, NJ opposite Philadelphia,
or Tompkinsville Staten Island and occasionally all the way to the
turning basin at Albany, NY. It was a 14,000 ton WW II T-2, built in
1944. It was powered by a large electric motor driven by a steam
turbine generator with steam made by a fire-tube scotch boiler burning
heavy bunkers oil. Replaced triple-expansion piston steam engines in
ships.
My beef with electric drive in boats or cars is the charging time,
as well as the scarcity of charging stations. Where I live, 75 miles
north of Norfolk and 250 miles south of Washington, DC there are very
few charging stations and those there are take 8 hours to put a full
charge into a Tesla. As chairman of the county economic development
authority I have investigated the cost of a fast-charging station to
attract travelers to our county, but even with a subsidy from Dominion
Power one would cost upwards of $250,000- and need the cables equal to
those supplying a small town.
- Gordon White
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Subject: Public-List Digest, Vol 4133, Issue 1
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======================================================
Today's Topics:
1. Re: corroded rudder (Clay Pass)
2. Re: cutlass housing replacement (Greg Wallis)
3. Re: Alberg 30 Sail Plan (Mike Meinhold)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:55:22 -0400
From: Clay Pass <[7]clay.q.pass at gmail.com>
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<[8]public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Cc: Stephen Gwyn <[9]stephen.gwyn at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] corroded rudder
Message-ID:
<[10]CAKQ=Ps5TvYOb-OcbMJQeGMdp_gCLJ5U6jmt1LGf3_8H3c_CesQ at mail.gmail.com
>
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I think originally that rudder post was supposed to be 3/4" ... mine
measured 5/8" when I had a new gudgeon made. That's pretty close to
your
.6". To me that seemed plenty strong enough. Especially considering
when
I got the boat, there was no gudgeon or support there at all. I don't
know
how long or in what conditions it had been sailed like that, but I
don't
think there is going to be tremendous side load at that point. I have
#449
which should be identical to yours and have some pictures of what it
looked
like if you are interested.
Clay Pass
#449 Seeing Deep
On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6:03 AM Stephen Gwyn via Public-List <
[11]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> While there is some "meat" left at the middle bearing, when I put
> my calipers on the shaft, find that 0.6 inches are left, which
translates
> to
> just 36% of the original strength. Not great. And that 0.6 inches was
> measured
> on top of the crud; there will be less left after sanding down to
clean
> metal.
> Basically, the approach of just cleaning it up and putting in a
delrin
> bushing,
> while seductively cheap and easy, isn't really a seaworthy solution
> unless I
> confine my sailing to quiet weather.
>
> I have a 1972 boat, #495. None of the pictures on the website are
from
> that era, as far as I can figure out. The older boats also had
fibreglass
> tube going up to the cockpit, above the waterline. Mine has a
stuffing
> box at the hull.
>
> What I'm trying to get from this group is some idea how the later
> rudders were built, whether it was all one continuous carefully bent
> shaft, or
> two parts or...
>
> SG
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:02:12 -0400
From: Greg Wallis <[15]gregwallis at gmail.com>
To: [16]public-list at lists.alberg30.org
Subject: Re: [Public-List] cutlass housing replacement
Message-ID:
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>
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Thanks for all your replies and help everybody.
I ended up carefully smushing some JB-Weld into the threads and then
using
a piece of 1 inch NPT threaded pipe from the hardware store to "shape"
the
wet JB-Weld. I just screwed and unscrewed the pipe through the gooey
threads slowly a few times and the stuff held it's shape just fine
while it
dried.
It took 3 very small coats to fill those damaged threads in completely.
The result looks pretty much perfect and the stern tube threads into it
just fine.
I water tested the housing in the sink overnight and it's not leaking.
So
I think the problem is solved.
Thanks again
Greg
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mike Lehman <[18]mlehman at gmail.com>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<[19]public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:19:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] cutlass housing replacement
> To use a technical term...they f'd up.
>
> Mike Lehman
> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 3:41 PM americo silva via Public-List <
> [20]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>
> > Im wondering why they cut into the threads in the first place
> >
> > On Thu., Jan. 21, 2021, 11:59 p.m. George Dinwiddie via
Public-List, <
> > [21]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >
> > > In my experience, it?s easier to seal the threads than the tube
to the
> > > hull. I suspect that if the threads weren?t sealed, my boat would
have
> > sunk
> > > before I noticed that the stern tube had rotated since I had
replaced
> the
> > > hose clamps. (The clamp screws were somewhat inaccessible.)
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > Sent from a primitive pocket computer. Please assume all errors
are due
> > to
> > > that.
> > >
> > > > On Jan 21, 2021, at 18:47, Clay Pass via Public-List <
> > > [22]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I thought in prior discussions we had agreed that water within
> (inside)
> > > the
> > > > stern tube was captured by the stuffing box/packing nut on the
other
> > end
> > > > from entering the boat. Water that leaks through the threads at
the
> > > > cutlass housing to the outside of the tube will be stopped from
> > entering
> > > > the boat by the complete seal of the stern tube to the hull
(outside
> of
> > > the
> > > > tube to thru hole in hull) and also the seal of the cutlass
bearing
> > > housing
> > > > to the hull. In any case, I had a housing scored just like this
and
> > had
> > > no
> > > > issues with it after caulking the whole interface with 3M 4000
and I
> > > > believe I caulked the threads with the same just for good
measure.
> As
> > > long
> > > > as you can screw the housing on the stern tube without it
turning or
> > > > breaking the seal and also use plenty of caulk to seal the
> > > > housing/hull/stern tube interface, you should not have any
issues. I
> > > > haven't had any with mine.
> > > >
> > > > Clay
> > > > #449 Seeing Deep
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 1:36 PM Greg Wallis via Public-List <
> > > > [23]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> I am in process of replacing the cutlass bearing,
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's a link to my poor cutlass bearing housing. Notice the
ruined
> > > pipe
> > > >> threads.
> > > >>
> >
[24]https://drive.google.com/file/d/198AJ_rMD7Lx8QrdksGXhIbeRR6_FPS9t/v
iew
> > > >>
> > > >> I took the cutlass bearing housing to a shop to have the new
bearing
> > > >> pressed in, and they proceeded to overcut the old bearing and
cut
> two
> > > deep
> > > >> groves lengthwise through the female pipe threads of the
cutlass
> > > housing.
> > > >> These threads connect the cutlass bearing housing to the stern
tube.
> > So
> > > >> now the threads are not going to be watertight. I think that
the
> > > threads
> > > >> will still function, but they will most certainly leak.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am hoping somebody has an identical alberg30 cutlass bearing
> housing
> > > that
> > > >> they'd be willing to sell to me. This would be the best.
> > > >>
> > > >> If I can't find another one, I am considering to allow this
fitting
> to
> > > leak
> > > >> between the stern tube and the cutlass bearing housing. I
think I'd
> > > just
> > > >> need to ensure that there is plenty of sealant around the
outside of
> > > stern
> > > >> tube where it exits the hull. I guess some water would
accumulate
> in
> > > that
> > > >> space and wouldn't really have anywhere to go.
> > > >>
> > > >> I would also put a generous layer of sealant on the threads
> > themselves,
> > > to
> > > >> hopefully prevent it from leaking at all. Doing this is going
to
> > make
> > > it
> > > >> very difficult to remove the cutlass bearing housing in the
future.
> > > >>
> > > >> If you have any suggestions or tricks to make these threads
> watertight
> > > >> again, please do let me know. How about a thread sealant that
would
> > > solve
> > > >> this problem and still be possible to unscrew in the future?
> > > >>
> > > >> Ideally though, if you have a cutlass bearing housing you'd be
> willing
> > > to
> > > >> part with, please let me know!
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks
> > > >> Greg
> > > >> hull #165
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> These businesses support your Association:
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> > > >>
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> > > >>
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:18:33 -0400
From: Mike Meinhold <[40]meinhold272 at gmail.com>
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
<[41]public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Alberg 30 Sail Plan
Message-ID:
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>
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Diesel electric is a good technology for ships when it serves the
arrangements well. If you are forced into compromises such as a very
long
shaft, or increasing section beam aft to accommodate an engine, then it
can
pay off. It works well for vessels that use as much electricity for
house
or for weapons as for propulsion. In these cases physically separating
the
energy conversion from the propulsion motor can work well. In an A30 ,
you
simply add weight and complexity to go diesel-electric, unless you
significantly reduce the requirements for speed and range. The gains in
propulsive efficiency will be small - we already have a good match with
small diesel and gas engines - so for matching peformance, your diesel
generator will have to generate 16 or so horsepower, and you will need
a 16
hp motor. You could use a smaller engine combined with batteries , and
run
it longer , but that will get heavy quickly.
For those willing to limit their A30 to daysailing or short cruises,
and
who have power at the pier to recharge, all-electric might work,
replacing
the fuel storage. Let's say I want a minimum 3 hours of 6 knot steaming
in
my batteries. That's 3 hours at 12 kw, 36 kw-hours. at 12 volts that's
3000
amp-hours, or quantity 30 12V, 100 amp-hour batteries. A 16 hp (12 kw)
electric motor is smaller and lighter than a 16 hp diesel, gaining you
say
4 or 5 100 amp-hour batteries - maybe more if you can be
weight-efficient.
You could replace that energy nightly , but would need a fairly
sophisticated charging system to deliver 36kw - hour in say 12 hours,
so
3000 watts. At 120 V that's 25 amps, just below a 30 amp dock
connection.
At a mooring the required solar panels are going to be very heavy and
large.
A quick look at solar panels finds 320 watts peak in a 1.7m x 1 m
panel. Lets say I can fit 3 of those somehow, getting 1.6 kw peak.
Assuming about 5 peak hours ( residential panel sizing uses numbers
like
this) we get 8 kw-hours/ day so need 2 days to fill the batteries back
up,
allowing me to daysail every 3rd day.
Of course others can have a different use case, but I consider a diesel
or
gas engine integral with the A30 design. If I had a customer who wanted
a
diesel-electric or an all-electric 30 foot sailboat, I could help
design
it, but it would not be an A30.
Mike
Rinn Duin #272
On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:54 Gordon Laco via Public-List <
[43]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> I reckon the limiting factor to making electric practical for cars or
> boats is battery performance. Technology has a way to go yet.
>
> I was reading the other day about the ?green? aspect of engines? the
> writer was making the case that electric, particularly electric using
> lithium batteries, pushes pollution out of our sight but loads it on
the
> third world.
>
> The writer made the case that so far the ?greenest? engine is a well
tuned
> diesel. Non-complex metals in its construction (mostly just iron), no
> reliance on solar or shore based electrical generation which has it?s
own
> particular polluting issues more complicated than the soot and CO
from the
> diesel?s exhaust?
>
> Sounds like heresy I know?
>
> Many large commercial vessels use well proven diesel-electric
propulsion.
> A smaller diesel than would be required if it drove the prop directly
runs
> at optimum speed for fuel economy and emission reduction, spinning a
gen
> set that in turn powers electric propulsion. I have wondered
sometimes
> that yachts don?t use that system?
>
> Gordon Laco
> 426 Surprise
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Mike Lehman via Public-List <
> [44]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >
> > I know of one Alberg 30 with an electric motor. To get any range it
> needs 2
> > sets of batteries...600 lbs each...yields about 2-3 hours of
motoring
> >
> > Mike Lehman
> > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 9:59 AM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
> > [45]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Dave, good morning, welcome aboard.
> >>
> >> There?s so much below that needs unpacking I?m not sure where to
> begin. I
> >> don?t mean that unkindly, so please don?t take it that way..
> >>
> >> So jumping to the ballast references? it is utterly and completely
> >> impossible to remove the ballast without embarking on a large and
> technical
> >> and very expensive engineering project. I suppose it would be
possible
> to
> >> remove the deck, remove the interior, chisel out the glass work
holding
> the
> >> encapsulated ballast in place, drill lifting bolt holes into the
iron,
> >> thread lifting rings into the holes, then arrange a gantry or
crane to
> >> perform the lift?. while having found a way to hold the shell of
the
> hull
> >> down while upwards force was applied to the ballast pig? huge
force
> much in
> >> excess of the weight of the iron to break it loose from the skin
of the
> >> keel.
> >>
> >> Alternative to all that, one might saw off the ballast area of the
keel
> >> from the outside, then build a new keel?
> >>
> >> Regardless, in order to come even remotely close to the density of
the
> >> iron the yachts were built with by stacking batteries as ballast,
would
> >> require a much larger volume of space than is currently occupied
by the
> >> iron. Ball parking the amount of space in a battery that is NOT
> lead?I?d
> >> venture that you might need four or five times the volume. But?
that
> >> volume is extra displacement (floating ?energy?), so just to sink
it
> you?d
> >> need even more batteries? where would you put them? And so the
> impossible
> >> circle would go?
> >>
> >> So, the short answer is? it is not practical to remove the
ballast,
> >> particularly with the intention to replace the ballast with
batteries.
> >>
> >>
> >> Gordon Laco
> >> [46]www.gordonlaco.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:24 PM, Dave Yamakuchi via Public-List <
> >> [47]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone, I'm Dave, skipper of Aquila, Hull #47 (1964/65.)
Work &
> >> sail in Chicago, mooring can at the mouth of Burnham Harbor.
> >>>
> >>> I had a few questions, but first, some background: 'Aquila'
doesn't
> have
> >> an Atomic 4, she has a Graymarine. It needs a bunch of stuff. And
it's
> >> 400+lbs, _without_ the exhaust pipe. The cockpit sits, I suspect,
a bit
> >> closer to the water than it should be maybe, if you catch my
drift.
> Giant
> >> saddlebag lazerette gas tanks probably don't help.
> >>>
> >>> So, I'm tearing that gak out. I'm going electric. With lots of
lead
> >> batteries.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, the mast isn't moving. But I'm definitely 'moving'
significant
> >> weight forward from the aft. Will she still sail right? I'm
considering
> >> allocating a few hundred pounds of batteries or so to the motor's
former
> >> location just to try and not wreck the fore/aft balance too badly,
> though
> >> I'm going in resigned to the fact that it's going to happen
anyway.
> >> amidoinitrite? I'm the electrical guy, not the sailor. Certainly
never
> >> been a shipwright. You all tell me. Please. The original batteries
were
> >> under the cabin floor, so right now Plan A is shoehorning as many
more
> >> pounds of 12V lead as is practical in there, plus whatever extras
in the
> >> engine compartment.
> >>>
> >>> I'm wondering though: has anyone here ever accessed or removed
their
> A30
> >> keel ballast? What shape / size is it? Is it tapered? Will it come
out
> >> the companionway with a crane maybe? Is this crazy talk? IDK. I'm
> >> basically getting a crane to help pull the motor anyway. 3300lbs
of
> lead
> >> batteries is rather a lot of power too. It would be a stretch, but
I
> could
> >> probably swing it.
> >>>
> >>> She's my first boat. I figured I'd ask some experts during the
planning
> >> phase...
> >>> Here's what I know:
> >>>
> >>> * The 70lb 12V type 31s claim about 80 AmpHours or '195 minutes
at 25A'
> >> which equals maybe 1/3hp for 3hours or so, conservatively.
> >>>
> >>> * Three of those gets 1hp, six of them does 2hp, etc. For that
same
> >> duration. Use less hp than that, get longer runtime, obviously.
> >>>
> >>> * Replacing the displacement of a 419lb motor and transmission
gets
> >> about six times 70lbs.
> >>>
> >>> * Plus two batteries 'existing' is eight.
> >>>
> >>> * The ballast is 3300lbs.
> >>>
> >>> * 47 x 70 lb batteries is 3,290lbs. 48 batteries x 25A per
battery x
> >> 12V is 14.4kW. 19hp.
> >>> * This leads to propeller questions, however, perhaps you get the
idea.
> >>> * I want to replace the iron ballast with lead.
> >>>
> >>> Why won't this work?
> >>>
> >>> How could it?
> >>>
> >>> What's the best place for those batteries?
> >>>
> >>> Can I get the batteries into the keel like I want?
> >>>
> >>> Opinions please.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks in advance and best regards.
> >>> Dave
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Public-List mailing list
> >>> [48]Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> >>>
[49]http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> >>>
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> >>> These businesses support your Association:
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> >>>
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> >>
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References
1. mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
2. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
3. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
4. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
5. mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
6. mailto:public-list-owner at lists.alberg30.org
7. mailto:clay.q.pass at gmail.com
8. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
9. mailto:stephen.gwyn at gmail.com
10. mailto:CAKQ=Ps5TvYOb-OcbMJQeGMdp_gCLJ5U6jmt1LGf3_8H3c_CesQ at mail.gmail.com
11. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
12. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
13. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
14. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
15. mailto:gregwallis at gmail.com
16. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
17. mailto:CALPN44y07mNDdeSZJ5T6AT9PgD1k6hzvKRxPacipvpAQu1mzWQ at mail.gmail.com
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