[Public-List] Alberg 30 Sail Plan

Thu Mar 11 09:49:08 PST 2021

As someone who's repowered to electric, I have to raise the objection
that there's nothing in the class rules about having an internal
combustion engine. Moreover, I don't know how things are about this down
in the Chesapeake, but up here in the GLAA, we recently awarded some
racing flags to Into The Blue (Richard and Margaret's boat), which was
repowered to electric a few years ago.

That said, although I wouldn't consider a boat as no longer being part
of the class for a repower, I certainly would for pulling the keel? I
mean aren't there a handful of lead-keeled A30s out there in the world
that aren't class legal because their lower centre of gravity gave them
too much of an advantage?

In terms of strong disincentives to replace the keel with batteries
(beyond difficulty of removing the keel, and compromising one-design
membership), I have another couple of cents to throw in:

I've got a single 48V bank made up of 4x 12v group 31s, because those
are the batteries whose weight added to the motor weight are about the
same as the weight of the A4 I repowered from (and they provide enough
range for my willingness to bob around waiting for the wind to pick back
up in non-emergency situations -- the A4s legendary reliability is
something I've never experienced first-hand, so that willingness is
high).

Now last winter, I had to do some work on the AC panel, and while I was
doing it, the ring terminal on the end of the cold wire leading the the
propulsion battery charger, well it came a little loose. Because of a
combination of the pandemic, and my port chainplate gently suggesting to
me that it was time to finally upgrade hose bolts from 1/4" to 5/16", it
was around mid-July (maybe even late July) by the time I was getting out
for my second sail of the season -- and the battery bank was appallingly
deeply discharged, because I hadn't paid close enough attention to the
battery monitor when plugging Candy Cane back in to recharge. The
voltage on the bank had dropped to something like 20V. Between winter
self-discharge, migration from my winter slip to my summer slip, and my
first sail of the season, I'd basically run those batteries flat enough
to have made garbage of the whole lot of them (and by garbage, I mean
130Ah batteries only being able to push 10-15A for maybe 45 minutes
before the motor started seeing insufficient voltage).

Fortunately, that's only about 300lb of battery, so the replacement cost
of ~$1k on the bank, while painful, is totally survivable.

If you replace the keel's weight all with batteries, you're looking at
3500lb of battery, which is more like $10k -- which would be plenty to
have me looking at reinstalling the iron keel and repowering back to gas
as a potentially cheaper alternative to replacing the batteries.

If you're really got the desire to go electric, consider spending what
you'd otherwise spend on a massive battery bank, on a more modest bank
and a genset. The electric motors are small enough that you can easily
fit a genny in the newly-liberated space in the engine compartment,
which pumps out enough watts to keep the motor pushing the boat through
the water at a decent cruising speed indefinitely, and you'll almost
certainly notice a huge fuel savings even if you power the motor
entirely off the genny.

Cheers,
Kris

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 10:53:26AM -0500, Rolph Townshend via Public-List wrote:
> Dave - First of all, your boat was delivered in 1964. #50 came to Annapolis
> in November 1964. Mine was #76, delivered to Annapolis in June, 1965.
> 
> One thing you should remember is that the A30 is a "ONE DESIGN BOAT" , that
> is, as far as we can, we should keep all of the boats alike. When you go to
> sell one with electric power and batteries you are selling a vastly
> modified A30. It is no longer an A30! And you have spent a vast amount of
> money to make it so!!..The Grey Marine was the engine in all of the early
> boats and it worked quite well. The overhaul of a Grey costs about
> $2,500-3K . Your boat, with an overhauled Grey should be worth at least $10
> K, depending on its other condition. Good ones here in Annapolis go for
> $15K.  The A30s all had a 15 gal fiberglass gas tank in the starboard
> cockpit seat and that would run the boat for about 20 hours or more At 6-7
> knots. If you have more gas tanks in the lazaret they are unnecessary.
> Remove them! I do not remember that the Grey weight was as much as you say.
> I think it was more like 300#. The A30, as it was designed and built, is a
> wonderful boat - modified as you plan makes it "not so wonderful'. You will
> be modifying the basic design - the various dimensions that make it
> balanced and make it sail perfectly.
> There was a dealer in New Jersey that did a great job of overhauling Grays.
> Look them up - they may still be there.
> Rolph Townshend, Annapolis, MD (former owner of #76 and #550)
> 
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 9:59 AM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Dave, good morning, welcome aboard.
> >
> > There’s so much below that needs unpacking I’m not sure where to begin.  I
> > don’t mean that unkindly, so please don’t take it that way..
> >
> > So jumping to the ballast references… it is utterly and completely
> > impossible to remove the ballast without embarking on a large and technical
> > and very expensive engineering project.  I suppose it would be possible to
> > remove the deck, remove the interior, chisel out the glass work holding the
> > encapsulated ballast in place, drill lifting bolt holes into the iron,
> > thread lifting rings into the holes, then arrange a gantry or crane to
> > perform the lift…. while having found a way to hold the shell of the hull
> > down while upwards force was applied to the ballast pig… huge force much in
> > excess of the weight of the iron to break it loose from the skin of the
> > keel.
> >
> > Alternative to all that, one might saw off the ballast area of the keel
> > from the outside, then build a new keel…
> >
> > Regardless, in order to come even remotely close to the density of the
> > iron the yachts were built with by stacking batteries as ballast, would
> > require a much larger volume of space than is currently occupied by the
> > iron.  Ball parking the amount of space in a battery that is NOT lead…I’d
> > venture that you might need four or five times the volume.   But… that
> > volume is extra displacement (floating ‘energy’), so just to sink it you’d
> > need even more batteries… where would you put them?  And so the impossible
> > circle would go…
> >
> > So, the short answer is… it is not practical to remove the ballast,
> > particularly with the intention to replace the ballast with batteries.
> >
> >
> > Gordon Laco
> > www.gordonlaco.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:24 PM, Dave Yamakuchi via Public-List <
> > public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi everyone, I'm Dave, skipper of Aquila, Hull #47 (1964/65.) Work &
> > sail in Chicago, mooring can at the mouth of Burnham Harbor.
> > >
> > > I had a few questions, but first, some background: 'Aquila' doesn't have
> > an Atomic 4, she has a Graymarine.  It needs a bunch of stuff.  And it's
> > 400+lbs, _without_ the exhaust pipe. The cockpit sits, I suspect, a bit
> > closer to the water than it should be maybe, if you catch my drift.  Giant
> > saddlebag lazerette gas tanks probably don't help.
> > >
> > > So, I'm tearing that gak out.  I'm going electric.  With lots of lead
> > batteries.
> > >
> > > Anyway, the mast isn't moving. But I'm definitely 'moving' significant
> > weight forward from the aft. Will she still sail right? I'm considering
> > allocating a few hundred pounds of batteries or so to the motor's former
> > location just to try and not wreck the fore/aft balance too badly, though
> > I'm going in resigned to the fact that it's going to happen anyway.
> > amidoinitrite?  I'm the electrical guy, not the sailor.  Certainly never
> > been a shipwright.  You all tell me. Please. The original batteries were
> > under the cabin floor, so right now Plan A is shoehorning as many more
> > pounds of 12V lead as is practical in there, plus whatever extras in the
> > engine compartment.
> > >
> > > I'm wondering though: has anyone here ever accessed or removed their A30
> > keel ballast?  What shape / size is it?  Is it tapered? Will it come out
> > the companionway with a crane maybe?  Is this crazy talk?  IDK. I'm
> > basically getting a crane to help pull the motor anyway.  3300lbs of lead
> > batteries is rather a lot of power too. It would be a stretch, but I could
> > probably swing it.
> > >
> > > She's my first boat. I figured I'd ask some experts during the planning
> > phase...
> > > Here's what I know:
> > >
> > > * The 70lb 12V type 31s claim about 80 AmpHours or '195 minutes at 25A'
> > which equals maybe 1/3hp for 3hours or so, conservatively.
> > >
> > > * Three of those gets 1hp, six of them does 2hp, etc. For that same
> > duration. Use less hp than that, get longer runtime, obviously.
> > >
> > > * Replacing the displacement of a 419lb motor and transmission gets
> > about six times 70lbs.
> > >
> > > * Plus two batteries 'existing' is eight.
> > >
> > > * The ballast is 3300lbs.
> > >
> > > * 47 x 70 lb batteries is 3,290lbs.  48 batteries x 25A per battery x
> > 12V is 14.4kW.  19hp.
> > > * This leads to propeller questions, however, perhaps you get the idea.
> > > * I want to replace the iron ballast with lead.
> > >
> > > Why won't this work?
> > >
> > > How could it?
> > >
> > > What's the best place for those batteries?
> > >
> > > Can I get the batteries into the keel like I want?
> > >
> > > Opinions please.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance and best regards.
> > > Dave
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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-- 
Kris Coward					http://unripe.melon.org/
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