[Public-List] Public-List Digest, Vol 4243, Issue 1
Winslow Ayer
135sleddinghill at gmail.com
Thu Sep 23 09:11:53 PDT 2021
Not all sailors learn early or even take lessons. Some spend time with other sailors learning the ropes, so to speak, but I’ve seen plenty of sailors that just take it up and mess about. Not to say that they’re bad sailors but they often haven’t mastered the finer points, or any points, of sailing.
Just saying,
Winslow
Tinkers Damn
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:
>
> Likewise from me… and I’m grateful that no-one seems to have taken the tack that I was disparaging the fellow whose rudder was damaged.
>
>
> Gordon Laco
> 426 Surprise
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Winslow Ayer via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>
>> Amen to that…
>>
>> Winslow
>>
>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 11:32 AM, Daniel Swords via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> It has pained me in the past to read about the “Alberg 30’s terrible weather helm” in different sailing forums. I was sailing yesterday in 20+ knots of wind (guts over 25 knots) with a double reefed mainsail and a 110% jib with the lee rail and occasionally even the shroud turnbuckles buried and with a basically neutral (perhaps even a very very slight lee) helm. For my boat the secret is to not be over powered by either the jib/genoa or the mainsail. When I initially bought my boat my only headsail choice was a 150% genoa and with that sail my boat began to developed a weather helm in about 12 knots of wind. Living on my boat and always sailing single handed I have put a lot of time and effort into developing sheet-to-tiller steering skills. I estimate that I spend about 60% of my sailing time self-steering. My Alberg 30 is a wonderful boat for this but it is sensitive to being easily overpowered so I have also put a lot of effort into developing my reefing and un-reefing systems and skills. A well reefed mainsail is a joy to behold.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 23, 2021, 9:09 AM, public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
>>>
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to Hawaii, broken rudder
>>> (Wade Wall)
>>> 2. Re: Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to Hawaii, broken
>>> rudder (Gordon Laco)
>>> 3. Re: Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to Hawaii, broken
>>> rudder (Daniel)
>>> 4. Re: Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to Hawaii, broken
>>> rudder (Winslow Ayer)
>>> 5. Re: Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to Hawaii, broken
>>> rudder (Wes Gardner)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 08:27:52 -0400
>>> From: Wade Wall <wade.wall at gmail.com>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Subject: [Public-List] Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to Hawaii,
>>> broken rudder
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CALHkh9TN9Ew+e61mxqtUB+rcQVt+DOrx28hbjDUr55mbbP-hLw at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A few weeks ago I posted a link to an Alberg 30 sailor who was sailing to
>>> Hawaii and broke his rudder. He made it to Hawaii by sailing with a drogue
>>> to steer. Video is here:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/1AZXXKj0p0s
>>>
>>> He discusses how he thinks the rudder broke toward the end. Basically, he
>>> thinks something hit it on the aft edge, but I just don't see how that
>>> could happen without the tiller being lashed to starboard or port. I
>>> haven't asked him if his tiller was lashed, but just curious if anyone had
>>> any thoughts.
>>>
>>> Wade Wall
>>> Sophie #421
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 08:51:09 -0400
>>> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Cc: Wade Wall <wade.wall at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to
>>> Hawaii, broken rudder
>>> Message-ID: <3BDE68FD-CD8C-4ADD-91F3-7D54B4A1B80A at csolve.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> Good morning friends,
>>>
>>> I watched his video in which the rudder failure occurred and have a few observations. I am in no way bring critical of his courage and spirit of adventure, but reckon that despite his many sea miles of experience, he does not have a great depth of understanding of seamanship.
>>>
>>> On the passage to Hawaii, before the rudder trouble, I noticed that he was sailing with at least 20 degrees of weather helm on his boat. When sailing down wind, he always had his sails close hauled, and there was a sequence where he was trying to reef his mainsail while it was full and drawing? sailing downwind. He eventually gave this up with the clew only partially drawn down, leaving a very deep curve in the sail. When next the point of view included the tiller, it could be seen that the weather helm was much worse.
>>>
>>> This of course is perfectly natural given the condition of the mainsail and point of sail, with the sails close hauled despite the course. The boat was sailed for days in this condition? sailing quite fast so the load on the steering must have been tremendous. At one point in the video, you can see the tiller is absolutely hard over for a long time as he was trying to hold a course? the point of view pans back to the rig and again, despite sailing downwind, the sheets are in as if close reaching. While watching, and knowing the shaft later came adrift from the blade of the rudder, I thought to myself ?ah?. I might have thought the rudder head might have come adrift before the blade broke due to the prolonged abnormal strain? but there it is.
>>>
>>> Again I wish to emphasize I do not snipe at his courage, resourcefulness nor his spirit? all of which he has in spades. And although steering by sail trim might have been a lot easier and probably more effective in an Alberg 30, his rigging of the drogue system showed great resourcefulness.
>>>
>>> As part of my own instruction when I was a kid, I was taught to steer the boat by sail balance? the intention was to teach us not to sail with unbalanced rigs and particularly with bad sail trim with an eye toward racing, but for the cruising sailor being able to sail ones boat without dragging the rudder at a needless angle is just good seamanship. And I am of the opinion that being able to sail the boat well is MORE important to cruising sailors than racers. Perhaps that video is an example of the consequences.
>>>
>>> With regard to the damage? my thought is that perhaps the impact happened at some time before the voyage.
>>>
>>> I thought of writing all this right after watching the video a few days ago, but hesitated because I do not wish to be misunderstood as ?dissing? the sailor. I am not. But your question Wade made me decide to write for the benefit of all of us.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gordon Laco
>>> 426 Surprise
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Wade Wall via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> A few weeks ago I posted a link to an Alberg 30 sailor who was sailing to
>>>> Hawaii and broke his rudder. He made it to Hawaii by sailing with a drogue
>>>> to steer. Video is here:
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/1AZXXKj0p0s
>>>>
>>>> He discusses how he thinks the rudder broke toward the end. Basically, he
>>>> thinks something hit it on the aft edge, but I just don't see how that
>>>> could happen without the tiller being lashed to starboard or port. I
>>>> haven't asked him if his tiller was lashed, but just curious if anyone had
>>>> any thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Wade Wall
>>>> Sophie #421
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:42:45 -0400
>>> From: Daniel <danielgrashof at gmail.com>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to
>>> Hawaii, broken rudder
>>> Message-ID: <450D8009-8437-4977-82BD-73A8CBD9F175 at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> Beneficial observations, Gordon,
>>>
>>> From reading your insights, I?ll be considering my sail trim even more next season on Lake Ontario. Sometimes I allow for too much weather helm myself, so these are essential things to think about.
>>>
>>> - Daniel
>>>
>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 09:00, Gordon Laco via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Good morning friends,
>>>>
>>>> I watched his video in which the rudder failure occurred and have a few observations. I am in no way bring critical of his courage and spirit of adventure, but reckon that despite his many sea miles of experience, he does not have a great depth of understanding of seamanship.
>>>>
>>>> On the passage to Hawaii, before the rudder trouble, I noticed that he was sailing with at least 20 degrees of weather helm on his boat. When sailing down wind, he always had his sails close hauled, and there was a sequence where he was trying to reef his mainsail while it was full and drawing? sailing downwind. He eventually gave this up with the clew only partially drawn down, leaving a very deep curve in the sail. When next the point of view included the tiller, it could be seen that the weather helm was much worse.
>>>>
>>>> This of course is perfectly natural given the condition of the mainsail and point of sail, with the sails close hauled despite the course. The boat was sailed for days in this condition? sailing quite fast so the load on the steering must have been tremendous. At one point in the video, you can see the tiller is absolutely hard over for a long time as he was trying to hold a course? the point of view pans back to the rig and again, despite sailing downwind, the sheets are in as if close reaching. While watching, and knowing the shaft later came adrift from the blade of the rudder, I thought to myself ?ah?. I might have thought the rudder head might have come adrift before the blade broke due to the prolonged abnormal strain? but there it is.
>>>>
>>>> Again I wish to emphasize I do not snipe at his courage, resourcefulness nor his spirit? all of which he has in spades. And although steering by sail trim might have been a lot easier and probably more effective in an Alberg 30, his rigging of the drogue system showed great resourcefulness.
>>>>
>>>> As part of my own instruction when I was a kid, I was taught to steer the boat by sail balance? the intention was to teach us not to sail with unbalanced rigs and particularly with bad sail trim with an eye toward racing, but for the cruising sailor being able to sail ones boat without dragging the rudder at a needless angle is just good seamanship. And I am of the opinion that being able to sail the boat well is MORE important to cruising sailors than racers. Perhaps that video is an example of the consequences.
>>>>
>>>> With regard to the damage? my thought is that perhaps the impact happened at some time before the voyage.
>>>>
>>>> I thought of writing all this right after watching the video a few days ago, but hesitated because I do not wish to be misunderstood as ?dissing? the sailor. I am not. But your question Wade made me decide to write for the benefit of all of us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>> 426 Surprise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Wade Wall via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago I posted a link to an Alberg 30 sailor who was sailing to
>>>>> Hawaii and broke his rudder. He made it to Hawaii by sailing with a drogue
>>>>> to steer. Video is here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://youtu.be/1AZXXKj0p0s
>>>>>
>>>>> He discusses how he thinks the rudder broke toward the end. Basically, he
>>>>> thinks something hit it on the aft edge, but I just don't see how that
>>>>> could happen without the tiller being lashed to starboard or port. I
>>>>> haven't asked him if his tiller was lashed, but just curious if anyone had
>>>>> any thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wade Wall
>>>>> Sophie #421
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>> Please support them.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:47:05 -0400
>>> From: Winslow Ayer <135sleddinghill at gmail.com>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Cc: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>, Wade Wall <wade.wall at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to
>>> Hawaii, broken rudder
>>> Message-ID: <F53A689E-2C2E-47F7-9C2C-DFBD800DFD2F at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> I too was taught to sail without a rudder for the same reasons as Gordon. It also made us aware that if we lost our rudder on one of these small boats that all was not lost. As challenging as it was to learn this, we got a great sense of how a boat handles with just a centerboard(or keel). Truly a courageous effort to rig and sail the drogue, something I can?t imagine myself doing.
>>>
>>> Winslow Ayer
>>> Tinkers Damn #283
>>>
>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:51 AM, Gordon Laco via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good morning friends,
>>>>
>>>> I watched his video in which the rudder failure occurred and have a few observations. I am in no way bring critical of his courage and spirit of adventure, but reckon that despite his many sea miles of experience, he does not have a great depth of understanding of seamanship.
>>>>
>>>> On the passage to Hawaii, before the rudder trouble, I noticed that he was sailing with at least 20 degrees of weather helm on his boat. When sailing down wind, he always had his sails close hauled, and there was a sequence where he was trying to reef his mainsail while it was full and drawing? sailing downwind. He eventually gave this up with the clew only partially drawn down, leaving a very deep curve in the sail. When next the point of view included the tiller, it could be seen that the weather helm was much worse.
>>>>
>>>> This of course is perfectly natural given the condition of the mainsail and point of sail, with the sails close hauled despite the course. The boat was sailed for days in this condition? sailing quite fast so the load on the steering must have been tremendous. At one point in the video, you can see the tiller is absolutely hard over for a long time as he was trying to hold a course? the point of view pans back to the rig and again, despite sailing downwind, the sheets are in as if close reaching. While watching, and knowing the shaft later came adrift from the blade of the rudder, I thought to myself ?ah?. I might have thought the rudder head might have come adrift before the blade broke due to the prolonged abnormal strain? but there it is.
>>>>
>>>> Again I wish to emphasize I do not snipe at his courage, resourcefulness nor his spirit? all of which he has in spades. And although steering by sail trim might have been a lot easier and probably more effective in an Alberg 30, his rigging of the drogue system showed great resourcefulness.
>>>>
>>>> As part of my own instruction when I was a kid, I was taught to steer the boat by sail balance? the intention was to teach us not to sail with unbalanced rigs and particularly with bad sail trim with an eye toward racing, but for the cruising sailor being able to sail ones boat without dragging the rudder at a needless angle is just good seamanship. And I am of the opinion that being able to sail the boat well is MORE important to cruising sailors than racers. Perhaps that video is an example of the consequences.
>>>>
>>>> With regard to the damage? my thought is that perhaps the impact happened at some time before the voyage.
>>>>
>>>> I thought of writing all this right after watching the video a few days ago, but hesitated because I do not wish to be misunderstood as ?dissing? the sailor. I am not. But your question Wade made me decide to write for the benefit of all of us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>> 426 Surprise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Wade Wall via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago I posted a link to an Alberg 30 sailor who was sailing to
>>>>> Hawaii and broke his rudder. He made it to Hawaii by sailing with a drogue
>>>>> to steer. Video is here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://youtu.be/1AZXXKj0p0s
>>>>>
>>>>> He discusses how he thinks the rudder broke toward the end. Basically, he
>>>>> thinks something hit it on the aft edge, but I just don't see how that
>>>>> could happen without the tiller being lashed to starboard or port. I
>>>>> haven't asked him if his tiller was lashed, but just curious if anyone had
>>>>> any thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wade Wall
>>>>> Sophie #421
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>> Please support them.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:08:59 -0400
>>> From: Wes Gardner <wesgardner1952 at gmail.com>
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>>> Cc: Winslow Ayer <135sleddinghill at gmail.com>, Wade Wall
>>> <wade.wall at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Dolor sailor on Alberg 30 made it to
>>> Hawaii, broken rudder
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CAFWpyHxHoU_rSKtF4Rk8HbaErEMf0ji-4Cz=43f=pa0Z33RrGA at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>
>>> Same observations...I am wondering if there'd be a "call" to install an eye
>>> bolt in the trailing edge of the rudder where steering lines could be
>>> attached...this would work for both tiller steering and wheel steered boats
>>> where the rudder itself stays in tact but the gear to turn it fails
>>>
>>> Wes
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:55 AM Winslow Ayer via Public-List <
>>>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I too was taught to sail without a rudder for the same reasons as Gordon.
>>>> It also made us aware that if we lost our rudder on one of these small
>>>> boats that all was not lost. As challenging as it was to learn this, we got
>>>> a great sense of how a boat handles with just a centerboard(or keel). Truly
>>>> a courageous effort to rig and sail the drogue, something I can?t imagine
>>>> myself doing.
>>>>
>>>> Winslow Ayer
>>>> Tinkers Damn #283
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:51 AM, Gordon Laco via Public-List <
>>>>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Good morning friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> I watched his video in which the rudder failure occurred and have a few
>>>> observations. I am in no way bring critical of his courage and spirit of
>>>> adventure, but reckon that despite his many sea miles of experience, he
>>>> does not have a great depth of understanding of seamanship.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the passage to Hawaii, before the rudder trouble, I noticed that he
>>>> was sailing with at least 20 degrees of weather helm on his boat. When
>>>> sailing down wind, he always had his sails close hauled, and there was a
>>>> sequence where he was trying to reef his mainsail while it was full and
>>>> drawing? sailing downwind. He eventually gave this up with the clew only
>>>> partially drawn down, leaving a very deep curve in the sail. When next the
>>>> point of view included the tiller, it could be seen that the weather helm
>>>> was much worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> This of course is perfectly natural given the condition of the mainsail
>>>> and point of sail, with the sails close hauled despite the course. The
>>>> boat was sailed for days in this condition? sailing quite fast so the load
>>>> on the steering must have been tremendous. At one point in the video, you
>>>> can see the tiller is absolutely hard over for a long time as he was trying
>>>> to hold a course? the point of view pans back to the rig and again, despite
>>>> sailing downwind, the sheets are in as if close reaching. While watching,
>>>> and knowing the shaft later came adrift from the blade of the rudder, I
>>>> thought to myself ?ah?. I might have thought the rudder head might have
>>>> come adrift before the blade broke due to the prolonged abnormal strain?
>>>> but there it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again I wish to emphasize I do not snipe at his courage, resourcefulness
>>>> nor his spirit? all of which he has in spades. And although steering by
>>>> sail trim might have been a lot easier and probably more effective in an
>>>> Alberg 30, his rigging of the drogue system showed great resourcefulness.
>>>>>
>>>>> As part of my own instruction when I was a kid, I was taught to steer
>>>> the boat by sail balance? the intention was to teach us not to sail with
>>>> unbalanced rigs and particularly with bad sail trim with an eye toward
>>>> racing, but for the cruising sailor being able to sail ones boat without
>>>> dragging the rudder at a needless angle is just good seamanship. And I am
>>>> of the opinion that being able to sail the boat well is MORE important to
>>>> cruising sailors than racers. Perhaps that video is an example of the
>>>> consequences.
>>>>>
>>>>> With regard to the damage? my thought is that perhaps the impact
>>>> happened at some time before the voyage.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought of writing all this right after watching the video a few days
>>>> ago, but hesitated because I do not wish to be misunderstood as ?dissing?
>>>> the sailor. I am not. But your question Wade made me decide to write for
>>>> the benefit of all of us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>>> 426 Surprise
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Wade Wall via Public-List <
>>>> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few weeks ago I posted a link to an Alberg 30 sailor who was sailing
>>>> to
>>>>>> Hawaii and broke his rudder. He made it to Hawaii by sailing with a
>>>> drogue
>>>>>> to steer. Video is here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://youtu.be/1AZXXKj0p0s
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He discusses how he thinks the rudder broke toward the end. Basically,
>>>> he
>>>>>> thinks something hit it on the aft edge, but I just don't see how that
>>>>>> could happen without the tiller being lashed to starboard or port. I
>>>>>> haven't asked him if his tiller was lashed, but just curious if anyone
>>>> had
>>>>>> any thoughts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wade Wall
>>>>>> Sophie #421
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>>> Please support them.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>> Please support them.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Please support them.
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>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> End of Public-List Digest, Vol 4243, Issue 1
>>> ********************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Please support them.
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> Please support them.
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