[Public-List] A new Alberg DIY project on Youtube

[Kris Coward]

Yep, but if I wasn't friendly and supportive in my message, I'd expect him to dismiss it out-of-hand, because that's what people generally do to unfriendly, unsupportive messages. Ideally, he reads my comment, absorbs it enough to realize the need for longitudinal strength, and starts talking about it in subsequent videos. Maybe he already had ideas in that direction and realizes that he needs to better share those parts of his plans, or maybe he does a video where he mentions that he was reminded of the importance of that strength, and starts talking about plans to make it happen or asks for help.

A friend of mine made a youtube channel which started with her taking simple prismatic LiFePO cells from China, and building them into batteries towards the goal of repowering a C&C Landfall 38 to electric. She's generally very conscientious about standards, safety, and generally anticipating and researching the ways that things may fail before diving in (she has a business setting up and running high-availability networking infrastructure), and I'm goign to be following her lead (and taking her advice) when doing some battery builds of my own. But that's not the reason I mention her; the reason is that one of her viewers has a business with an ABYC membership, and added her as being part of that business, so that she'd be able to access all the relevant standards for the work she was doing. (So now I can lean on her to make sure that my own battery setups will be up to code). That's a friendly and supportive viewer, and one who's having a positive impact on the safety of multiple sailors and boats connected to the battery building shown in those videos.

I don't have any proper formal standards to share with the guy in the video, but I was able to share some informal advice that unless he wants to take the risk that excessive load on the backstay will lead to near-certain loss of the boat and probable loss of life, instead of just the mast falling over and a bit of misery and regret  while he motors to a yard for repairs, the stern extension should be built strongly enough that he'd feel confident picking up the boat by the new transom and shaking her around a little (supported by a comparison between the breaking strength of a backstay and the displacement of an A30).

Maybe if he listens to me, and shows that he's listening, someone with better qualifications will be able to step in and give him what he needs to build that extension right (or decide not to build it).

-K


-- 
Kris Coward
https://unripe.melon.org/


On Tuesday, December 19th, 2023 at 13:32, Ryan Goggans via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:


> I'm really tired of seeing terrible ideas promoted to the public on
> youtube. I think it's important to be critical. Is he just going to glass
> this thing to the topsides without any longitudinal structure?
> 
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 1:05 PM Kris Coward via Public-List <
> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, I just went back to comment, and reference the timestamp in my
> > comment (0:28 for the curious), and I really couldn't tell what was going
> > on with the backstay, since the modified diagram seemed to keep the
> > original backstay, but run an additional stay from the new stern to about
> > 1/3 of the way up said original backstay. From the brown rectangles at the
> > ends of it, I'm guessing that he's aiming to make some sort of 3-way split
> > backstay, with the 3 split components running to the new stern and either
> > side of the original stern, to allow for a slightly longer boom, but I'm
> > still confused. I posted a "here's why you need to make sure your extended
> > hull is stronger than your backstay (and a qualitative idea of just how
> > strong that is)" comment even though I'm still not sure what he's got in
> > mind.
> > 
> > Hopefully I was able to maintain a reasonably friendly and supportive tone
> > when offering my words of caution.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Kris
> > 
> > --
> > Kris Coward
> > https://unripe.melon.org/
> > 
> > On Tuesday, December 19th, 2023 at 10:21, Pier-André Bouchard St-Amant via
> > Public-List public-list at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
> > 
> > > Kris,
> > > The picture shows a plan to move the backstay at the end of the aft
> > > extension.
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > 
> > > Pier #399
> > > 
> > > Le 19 décembre 2023 03 h 25 min 31 s HNE, Kris Coward via Public-List
> > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org a écrit :
> > > 
> > > > I remember the video briefly showing a profile of the planned
> > > > lengthened boat, and in addition to the stern extension, there appeared to
> > > > be a bowsprit in the lengthened version.
> > > > 
> > > > The picture wasn't up long enough for me to take a good look at it,
> > > > and although I'm not up to giving the video another watch so that I can
> > > > pause on it, I'm going to assume that the plan involves running a stay to
> > > > the sprit, and flying a jib from it.
> > > > 
> > > > If nothing else is done to rebalance the rig, that change will move
> > > > the centre of effort unacceptably far forward (even with some very
> > > > conservative assumptions about the resulting rig that I used for some
> > > > napkin-math).
> > > > 
> > > > If the stern is getting an extension like that, I think it's a safe
> > > > guess that there's a plan to move the backstay to the end of the extension,
> > > > and lengthen the boom and main. If that's done, then the extension needs to
> > > > be sturdy enough not to break under the tension of the backstay. That's
> > > > going to be really hard to pull off, even leaning heavily on the sturdiness
> > > > of the original A30.
> > > > 
> > > > If this guy's stern extension buckles or separates from the original
> > > > stern, there's a very good chance that he'll not only lose his rig when the
> > > > wind gets stiff, but the process of losing it will damage his hull in a way
> > > > that'll let the wet stuff in. As if losing the rig and taking on water
> > > > isn't bad enough on its own, the VHF antenna at the top of the mast is no
> > > > longer going to be in a place that gives a mayday broadcast the sort of
> > > > range that one would normally hope for.
> > > > 
> > > > All in all, that sounds like the sort of bad day where not only the
> > > > loss of the vessel, but the loss of one or more lives aboard are all likely
> > > > enough that I also found the video a bit worrying.
> > > > 
> > > > On second thought, maybe it is worth pausing on those sketches in the
> > > > video, and sharing some of these concerns in the comments there, if the
> > > > sketch of the extended boat does indeed suggest a moved backstay.
> > > > 
> > > > -Kris
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > Kris Coward
> > > > https://unripe.melon.org/
> > > > 
> > > > On Monday, December 18th, 2023 at 22:14, Michael Connolly via
> > > > Public-List public-list at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In reference to the lengthened stern section. I don't know exactly
> > > > > what he was trying to accomplish. There was a large cut out for I believe
> > > > > his proposed self steering gear. It didn't appear that he was going to
> > > > > alter the structure of the hull, just add this faring around the steering
> > > > > gear. I don't know if there would be any windage issues, but worry about a
> > > > > following sea crashing down on all that added structure.
> > > > > Michael #133
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On 12/18/2023 5:15 PM EST Gordon Laco via Public-List
> > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Hello Hugh,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I agree with what you wrote below… in my own view, as a
> > > > > > professional outfitter and rigger of sailing ships and yachts, this
> > > > > > particular project appears to be worrisome.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Strangely enough, there is a precedent for this sort of thing…
> > > > > > back in the 1950’s Adlard Coles, the famous English yachtsman and
> > > > > > publisher, wanted to enter his yacht COHOE in a race whose regulations
> > > > > > required a particular minimum length over all, and COHOE was a few feet shy
> > > > > > of that. She was a very well-found vessel and he had complete confidence in
> > > > > > her, but the race committee were steadfast on holding to their rule.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So Coles went to a professional yard and had an aluminium false
> > > > > > bow built on COHOE, lengthening her just enough to meet the rule. He was
> > > > > > very careful NOT to involve any of the yacht’s rigging with the extension,
> > > > > > and literally immediately after the race he removed it, and sailed COHOE
> > > > > > home across the Atlantic.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > There’s a lot going on in a yacht with regard to stresses and
> > > > > > balance. Dramatic modifications can and do create unintended perils which
> > > > > > may or may not be worth the added risk a particular modification invites.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So what is risky? What is brilliant and courageous? I’ll put it
> > > > > > this way…
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Imagine you heard of a fellow who was new to driving. He didn’t
> > > > > > have a driver’s licence and had never owned a car. He buys an old car, and
> > > > > > sets off on a trip across the country from Halifax to Vancouver. He gets as
> > > > > > far as Calgary, but is killed at a traffic light because his car had bad
> > > > > > brakes, bald tires, and he didn’t know red meant stop. Would you say he’s
> > > > > > courageous for going on the trip and getting that far? Or would you say he
> > > > > > too crazy risks and was luck to get that far? People who understand cars
> > > > > > and driving might assume the later… people who don’t might assume the
> > > > > > former. Seamanship and outfitting vessels is pretty much like preparing a
> > > > > > car for a long trip. There are basics anyone who understands cars just
> > > > > > wouldn’t do… but someone who didn’t understand cars, just may do.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And all this reminds me of a fellow who came out of the audience
> > > > > > about ten or so years ago after a talk I’d given at a big marine trade
> > > > > > show. He had a dream of sailing back to Norway on the one hundredth
> > > > > > anniversary of his family emigrating to Canada. He’d bought a 36’ wooden
> > > > > > boat and was outfitting for the expedition. We began corresponding by email
> > > > > > and phone… I quickly realized he was getting into trouble. He’d never owned
> > > > > > a boat before and was making what any sailor would consider ill-advised
> > > > > > alterations to the vessel. The vessel was an old wooden motor sailer,
> > > > > > basically a cabin cruiser with a short rig on it, and it was thoroughly
> > > > > > rotten. His repairs were patches and paint… his preparations, which he
> > > > > > thought were clever and novel, were impractical. I was gentle with him but
> > > > > > after trying to tell him in an email that his boat was unsuitable to take
> > > > > > to sea, he stopped responding. I met him in January at the show… our last
> > > > > > email exchange was in April. In September I heard a news story on the radio
> > > > > > that he was dead. He’d got as far as off the coast of Iceland (sailing from
> > > > > > Toronto) and his boat had literally fallen apart and sunk. He encountered
> > > > > > no bad weather, the boat was rotten and just fell apart.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > He had a life raft, but he couldn’t deploy it because the canister
> > > > > > still had the steel shipping straps on it he should have removed. He had a
> > > > > > cold water immersion suit… one… but he had a nephew with him and he
> > > > > > courageously gave it to his nephew, who then had the experience of watching
> > > > > > his uncle die of hypothermia beside him in the water.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > They had a sat phone on board, but they wasted three days while
> > > > > > the boat was sinking trying to talk to someone in Iceland when really all
> > > > > > they had to do was call any national coast guard, such as our own in
> > > > > > Canada, or call home and ask them to call 911, and the international rescue
> > > > > > service would have kicked in and saved them both.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So he was dead… and I wondered if I might have saved him if I
> > > > > > hadn’t worried about being polite when I saw with my professional mariner’s
> > > > > > eyes what he was heading for. I am at least relieved of that guilt, because
> > > > > > I now know that I am not the only person who tried to help him and he
> > > > > > refused everyone’s advice if it meant changing something he’d set his mind
> > > > > > on. Such as REALLY repairing the rotten stem and keel of the boat instead
> > > > > > of just painting it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So just before COVID, a fellow in Montreal called me up and wanted
> > > > > > to talk about paint. He was a retired racing car engineer and reckoned with
> > > > > > his deep knowledge of engineering and experience with high performance
> > > > > > vehicles, he could certainly do something as simple as design a high speed
> > > > > > cruising power boat to go to sea in. He sent me pictures… The vessel was
> > > > > > rectangular in cross section with a welded steel frame… skinned with 1”
> > > > > > thick birch plywood. It was 60’ long, 8 feet wide and would draw about 1’
> > > > > > at rest. The freeboard was something like 5’ and there was a large steel
> > > > > > framed superstructure on it. I didn’t worry about hurting his feelings… I
> > > > > > told him that his boat looked to me like it might be the central hull of a
> > > > > > trimaran, but without outriggers, it would never stay upright. I then
> > > > > > introduced him to Steve Killing, the brilliant naval architect who lives
> > > > > > near me here who is one of the people who ‘invented’ the lifting foils
> > > > > > America’s Cup catamarans use.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The amateur builder got into conversation with Steve and the
> > > > > > upshot of that is he abandoned the project as unsalvageable. He was
> > > > > > thinking he was going to take that boat to sea, and imagining ocean
> > > > > > crossings made at 30 knots. We think we saved his life, and perhaps that of
> > > > > > whoever went with him. And there have been others over the years. Any of
> > > > > > you remember a three masted vessel named ‘BLIND FAITH’ in Maine?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > So the unorthodox modifications of the Alberg 30 that was referred
> > > > > > to at the beginning of this string bring all that back to mind. I’ve seen
> > > > > > the sketches the owner put online, I’ve seen the construction method in the
> > > > > > video… I am frowning. I hope this boat is never destined to go to sea and
> > > > > > the modifications are just a fun exercise and the worst that will happen is
> > > > > > the loss of an Alberg 30 with regard to specifications. If it is intended
> > > > > > to go to sea, I hope someone close to the owner will step in. I hope that
> > > > > > person is listened to.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Gordon Laco
> > > > > > www.gordonlaco.com
> > > > > > 705-527-9612
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Dec 18, 2023, at 3:40 PM, Hugh McCormack via Public-List
> > > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > As the person who posted the original message in this thread,
> > > > > > > please understand that whatever anyone wants to do with their boat is
> > > > > > > entirely up to them and is none of my business. You are quite right that a
> > > > > > > "...mod might be your cup of tea or it might not...". I have learned much
> > > > > > > from what has been posted here and I am happy to support what others do if
> > > > > > > I can with my limited knowledge and experience but I stand by my original
> > > > > > > comments with respect to this particular project. I hope that he doesn't
> > > > > > > endanger himself or others with his planned modifications because, in my
> > > > > > > non-professional opinion and based on his explanation of the project, I
> > > > > > > believe he could be affecting the future stability and handling of the
> > > > > > > boat. I am concerned that he is making plans and decisions without the
> > > > > > > appropriate knowledge and/or advice, hence my comments about being confused
> > > > > > > and slightly shaken. I hope his video postings generate that helpful
> > > > > > > feedback which I believe he needs.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hugh
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Public-List public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org on
> > > > > > > behalf of Meredith Glacken via Public-List public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> > > > > > > Sent: December 18, 2023 00:52
> > > > > > > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> > > > > > > Cc: Meredith Glacken meredith.glacken at gmail.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Public-List] A new Alberg DIY project on Youtube
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > One of the great things about the Alberg 30 is how modifiable it
> > > > > > > is. I
> > > > > > > don't think I've been aboard a single one that looks the same,
> > > > > > > and that's
> > > > > > > very cool. A mod might be your cup of tea or it might not, but
> > > > > > > what makes
> > > > > > > this email list awesome is all the helpful tips to those working
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > projects from folks who have been sailing these boats for
> > > > > > > decades (or mere
> > > > > > > days!)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We have some wonderful association members (including the owner
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > youtube channel linked in this thread) and others who are doing
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > creative things to their Albergs and courageously documenting
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > successes, failures, and experiments very publicly, and that's
> > > > > > > lucky for
> > > > > > > us! Let's remember to keep the content on this email list
> > > > > > > positive and
> > > > > > > support our fellow Alberg 30 sailors who are trying something
> > > > > > > new.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Linking the Alberg 30 YouTube channels that I've had some fun
> > > > > > > watching.
> > > > > > > Anyone know of others worth tuning into?
> > > > > > > The Rigging Doctor: https://www.youtube.com/@RiggingDoctor
> > > > > > > Sailing Tritea: https://www.youtube.com/@SailorJames
> > > > > > > Huub Vlogs: https://www.youtube.com/@HuubVlogs
> > > > > > > Sailing Aqua Marie:
> > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/@sailingaquamarie1708
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -Meredith Glacken, Fleet Captain, Chesapeake Bay Alberg 30 One
> > > > > > > Design
> > > > > > > Association
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 10:00 PM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
> > > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Yup…
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Gordon Laco
> > > > > > > > www.gordonlaco.comhttp://www.gordonlaco.com
> > > > > > > > 705-527-9612
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2023, at 9:52 PM, Glenn Brooks via Public-List <
> > > > > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Truly astonished. All pain. No possible gain.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Michael Connolly via
> > > > > > > > > > Public-List <
> > > > > > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps he likes long overhangs. He is attempting to
> > > > > > > > > > protect his self
> > > > > > > > > > steering gear from a rearend collision.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > On 12/17/2023 12:47 PM EST Hugh McCormack via
> > > > > > > > > > > Public-List <
> > > > > > > > > > > public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Youtube kindly offered me this video today: Can You Make
> > > > > > > > > > > Your Boat
> > > > > > > > > > > Bigger? | Windpuff's Rebuild [S1 Ep3] - YouTube<
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-KKqXfwyQI> since I
> > > > > > > > > > > have searched, in
> > > > > > > > > > > the past, for videos about our classic vessel. I then
> > > > > > > > > > > looked at the 2
> > > > > > > > > > > previous videos to try and understand what his
> > > > > > > > > > > intentions are. I'm left
> > > > > > > > > > > rather confused and slightly shaken.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Regards all,
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Hugh
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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