[Alberg30] Genoa Travler

Roger L. Kingsland rkingsland101 at ksba.com
Mon Dec 1 06:27:59 PST 2003


Mike;

Congratulations on your third place.

Roger

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
To: "Alberg 30 public list" <public-list at alberg30.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler


> Roger,
>
> I am not an engineer, but I have been on an Alberg 30 where we (I) ripped
the primary winch and winch pedestal off the deck due to excessive loading.
The forces did not affect the genoa track, which is point loaded at the
block. If the track was mounted on the deck, I am sure the force would have
lifted the deck or pulled the bolts through the deck even with a hefty
backing plate. There's something to keep you awake at night! BTW, this
incident took place on the first tack of a race, we still took 3rd with only
one winch, but the cockpit was a mess throughout the race.
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Roger L. Kingsland
>   To: Alberg 30 public list
>   Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:30 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>
>
>   Mike;
>
>   Thanks for your input, it really is appreciated.  Although I don't plan
to
>   race at first, I certainly would not do anything that is not class legal
so
>   I have dropped the idea of moving the genoa traveler inboard.  I still
don't
>   think it is a structural issue because A) the load from the Genoa sheet
is
>   probably 1/4 that of a boom vang, and B) the load on a traveler can be
>   distributed along it's length while a pad eye is a point load.
>
>   Relative to the toe rail, the old teak was not salvageable (because the
only
>   way I could get the deformed bolts out was to grind through the side on
the
>   teak to cut off the bolt heads) and, now, there is not one piece of
metal
>   (except the mast plate) connected to the deck.  So I have a clean slate.
I
>   have countersunk 3/16" stainless rivets 4" on center (near the outboard
edge
>   of the smooth part) and encased the heads in epoxy.  I have also built
up
>   the hull to deck joint with Marine Tex so it is now a finished joint.  I
>   have been messing ad nauseum with the new toe rail detail and will send
you
>   sketches of my current thinking.  Thanks for your feedback.
>
>   Roger Kingsland
>
>
>   Roger L. Kingsland, AIA
>   Managing Partner
>   Kingsland Scott Bauer Associates (KSBA)
>   N40° 27' 49"  W79° 57' 59"
>   3441 Butler Street
>   Pittsburgh, PA 15201
>   www.ksba.com
>
>   1(412) 252-1500 X101 - Office & Voice Mail
>   1(412) 779-5101 - Mobile (no voice mail)
>   1(412) 252-1510 - Fax
>
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
>   To: "Alberg 30 public list" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>   Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 12:06 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>
>
>   > Roger, You need to sail the boat for a couple of years before making
this
>   assumption. I have sailed my A30 for 26 years and have not found this to
be
>   true. Minor bumps do not affect the Alberg. What you are proposing is
not a
>   good idea. The strain on the deck will pull the joint apart. Ask Larry
>   Morris whose previous owner had installed a pad-eye for a boom vang on
the
>   deck inside the toe rail. The stress on the eye pulled the deck up and
>   compromised the deck/hull joint. Larry and I removed toe rail and track,
>   then re-bed everything. I have been on many A30's that have pad-eyes on
the
>   rail thru bolted through the deck/hull joint and there has been no
problems.
>   Moving the track inboard also changes the sheeting angle and would not
be
>   considered legal under class racing rules.
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   >   From: Roger L. Kingsland
>   >   To: Alberg 30 public list
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 2:28 PM
>   >   Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>   >
>   >
>   >   Mike;
>   >
>   >   Not to sound like Bill Clinton but, it depends on what your
definition
>   of
>   >   damage is.  My argument is that, because the rail connector and the
thru
>   >   hull fastener are the same assembly, even small bumps against the
rail
>   will
>   >   work the thru hull joint causing leaks and weakening of the joint.
This
>   >   type of "damage" is not visible but how many boats leak at the toe
rail?
>   >
>   >   Roger
>   >
>   >
>   >   Roger L. Kingsland, AIA
>   >   Managing Partner
>   >   Kingsland Scott Bauer Associates (KSBA)
>   >   N40° 27' 49"  W79° 57' 59"
>   >   3441 Butler Street
>   >   Pittsburgh, PA 15201
>   >   www.ksba.com
>   >
>   >   1(412) 252-1500 X101 - Office & Voice Mail
>   >   1(412) 779-5101 - Mobile (no voice mail)
>   >   1(412) 252-1510 - Fax
>   >
>   >
>   >   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   >   From: "Mike Lehman" <sail_505 at hotmail.com>
>   >   To: <public-list at alberg30.org>
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:51 AM
>   >   Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>   >
>   >
>   >   > Take it from someone who has hit a number of things with the
Alberg
>   over
>   >   the
>   >   > years - you gotta hit it pretty damn hard to cause any damage.
Last
>   >   > encounter: 4-foot waves, 25+ knots and a BIG red channel marker.
Ouch!
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > Mike Lehman
>   >   > "Gilleleje" #505
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > ----Original Message Follows----
>   >   > From: "Roger L. Kingsland" <rkingsland101 at ksba.com>
>   >   > Reply-To: Alberg 30 public list <public-list at alberg30.org>
>   >   > To: "Alberg 30 public list" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>   >   > Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>   >   > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:59:24 -0500
>   >   >
>   >   > Larry;
>   >   >
>   >   > Thanks for your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" vote.  I will do
the
>   >   count
>   >   > when the polls close.
>   >   >
>   >   > The fact that I have gotten other inquiries like yours below
regarding
>   my
>   >   > docking technique leads me to wonder if I could better occupy
>   everyone's
>   >   > time discussing docking, not toe rails.  I have always thought
that
>   one
>   >   > should hit the dock at an angle of about 30 degrees and only hard
>   enough
>   >   to
>   >   > have the forward end of the boat bounce out enough so the boat
drifts
>   >   > parallel to the dock.  If you go too fast the bow will bounce too
far
>   away
>   >   > from the dock (which is only a problem if you can' get a bow line
over
>   the
>   >   > piling) and the impact will not be enough to stop the forward
momentum
>   of
>   >   > the boat (which is only a problem if there is another boat, dingy,
>   Manatee
>   >   > and/or a lousy, rotten dock that can't even take the impact of a
>   little
>   >   > sailboat without collapsing right in front of your eyes... in the
>   way).
>   >   > Perhaps there is a better way I am missing.
>   >   >
>   >   > Roger
>   >   > Old, beat up, toe rail-less  #148
>   >   >
>   >   > ----- Original Message -----
>   >   > From: "Larry Morris" <larmor at myexcel.com>
>   >   > To: "'Alberg 30 public list'" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>   >   > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 1:06 PM
>   >   > Subject: RE: [Alberg30] Genoa Traveler
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >  > I vote for the ain't broke don't fix it solution.  By the way,
how
>   hard
>   >   >  > do you hit your dock anyway?  I think if you hit a piling hard
>   enough
>   >   to
>   >   >  > dislodge the genoa track or egg shape the bolt holes, you will
have
>   >   >  > bigger problems to deal with.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Larry Morris
>   >   >  > Solstice #501
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > -----Original Message-----
>   >   >  > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
>   >   >  > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Roger L.
>   >   >  > Kingsland
>   >   >  > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 3:42 PM
>   >   >  > To: dk.campbell at sympatico.ca; Alberg 30 public list
>   >   >  > Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Don;
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > To answer your question ("Why would you want to try  to weaken
the
>   >   >  > attachment point for wind and genoa forces on an AL 30?"),
first
>   the
>   >   >  > short
>   >   >  > answer followed by the long answer (for the insomniac
Albergers)
>   that I
>   >   >  > composed some time ago to sort out the issues for myself.  Any
>   feedback
>   >   >  > would be appreciated.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Short Answer:
>   >   >  > I am sure the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" crowd will
point
>   out
>   >   the
>   >   >  > thousands of Albergs and other boats of the era having a
similar
>   toe
>   >   >  > rail
>   >   >  > detail that haven't sunk yet.  But, this detail simply does not
>   stand
>   >   up
>   >   >  > to
>   >   >  > the logic test and, in my humble, newbie opinion, it is
definitely
>   >   >  > broke.
>   >   >  > The problem is the fastening system requiring great strength
and
>   >   >  > rigidity
>   >   >  > (the structural connection between hull and deck) is the wrong
type
>   >   >  > (shear
>   >   >  > vs. friction) and is constantly subjected to forces that weaken
it
>   >   >  > (bumps
>   >   >  > into the dock and genoa sheet loads).
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > To me, the solution is to create a good, bonded friction
connection
>   >   >  > between
>   >   >  > hull and deck and to separate connections for the loads on the
toe
>   rail
>   >   >  > and
>   >   >  > genoa track.  Thus the question about moving the traveler
inboard.
>   >   >  > Also,
>   >   >  > the wind load on a 400 square foot sail at 30 knots is under
2,000
>   >   >  > pounds
>   >   >  > (assuming the sail is still intact in such wind), half of which
>   goes to
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > sheet.  If the sheet enters the block at 45 degrees, the upward
>   force
>   >   on
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > track is less than 800 pounds (500 pounds at 30 degrees).  It
is
>   >   >  > relatively
>   >   >  > easy to distribute with the proper backer plate.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Long Answer:
>   >   >  > I am in the process of replacing my toe rail on #148 and I have
the
>   >   >  > impression the rivets were meant primarily to hold the deck and
>   hull
>   >   >  > together during chemical bonding.  The rivets, which I drilled
out
>   and
>   >   >  > filled with Marine Tex were too small and too deteriorated to
have
>   any
>   >   >  > appreciable tensile or shear strength and were located near the
>   outside
>   >   >  > edge
>   >   >  > of the joint overlap where they would not be effective in
creating
>   a
>   >   >  > friction connection (but would do a good job of holding the
hull
>   and
>   >   >  > deck
>   >   >  > together
>   >   >  > while the joint cured).  I replaced them with 3/16" SS rivets
4" OC
>   >   >  > about
>   >   >  > 1-1/2" inboard (my hand still hurts).
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > The thru bolted toe rail fasteners (3/16" SS bolts, 6" OC) seem
to
>   be
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > primary hull/deck mechanical fastener.  The problem with these
is,
>   >   >  > because
>   >   >  > they also hold the toe rail, they can not be tightened
sufficiently
>   >   (the
>   >   >  > teak doesn't have sufficient compressive strength) to create a
>   friction
>   >   >  > connection (like that created by a clamp or Chinese handcuffs)
at
>   the
>   >   >  > intersection of hull and deck. If the chemical bond fails, the
only
>   >   >  > remaining bond is the aluminum rivets (which are marginal) and
the
>   >   shear
>   >   >  > connection created where the SS bolts that pass thru the
hull/deck
>   >   >  > material.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > A shear connection is only as strong as the surface area that
>   "pushes"
>   >   >  > against the sides of the connector; in this case, the sides of
the
>   >   holes
>   >   >  > in
>   >   >  > the hull and deck (each less than 1/2" thick) forced against
the
>   bolt
>   >   >  > shaft.
>   >   >  > Also, unless there are no gaps between the fastener and the
>   >   >  > material being fastened, the shear connection comes into play
only
>   >   after
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > chemical bond fails.  So instead of the mechanical fastener
adding
>   to
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > strength of the chemical bond, its strength is only realized
after
>   the
>   >   >  > chemical bond
>   >   >  > fails.  I suspect the chemical bond is stronger so, if a force
>   >   >  > sufficient
>   >   >  > to break that bond is applied, a second application of the same
>   force
>   >   >  > would
>   >   >  > also cause failure of the mechanical fasteners.  Glug, glug.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Ensuring bolt holes are filled with epoxy (often a messy,
>   hit-or-miss
>   >   >  > process) or using fully threaded screws would allow both
>   connections to
>   >   >  > work
>   >   >  > in
>   >   >  > concert but, the limited strength of a mechanical fastener in
shear
>   >   >  > would
>   >   >  > still be a problem.  A screw with a smooth shaft at the upper
of
>   the
>   >   two
>   >   >  > layers being fastened will create a friction connection but its
>   >   strength
>   >   >  > will be limited the thread grip on the relatively thin lower
>   material.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > The dual function of the fasteners creates another problem.
That
>   is
>   >   the
>   >   >  > fasteners that hold the hull and deck together also hold the
toe
>   rail
>   >   >  > (AKA,
>   >   >  > bumper) onto the deck.  Just a minor bump against a piling can
>   >   >  > cause movement of the bolts which will enlarge the hole through
>   which
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > bolt
>   >   >  > passes (I removed bolts forward that had a lazy "S" shape).  In
>   >   >  > addition,
>   >   >  > any eccentric load on the genoa traveler attached to the top of
the
>   >   rail
>   >   >  > will "work' the thru deck bolts.  Close hauled, where loads are
>   higher
>   >   >  > and
>   >   >  > more longitudinal, the depth of the toe rail will create shear
>   >   >  > resistance.
>   >   >  > When loads are transverse, as in when the sail is out
(especially
>   when
>   >   >  > held
>   >   >  > out by a whisker pole), the thin toe rail does little to
prevent
>   >   bending
>   >   >  > in
>   >   >  > the bolts which are essentially cantilevered from the deck.  I
>   suspect
>   >   >  > this
>   >   >  > is why we read postings such as this one from George Dinwiddie,
>   "Most
>   >   of
>   >   >  > my
>   >   >  > leaks in the lockers under the salon windows have come from
leaking
>   >   >  > genoa
>   >   >  > track bolts."  The result is water tight integrity becomes
entirely
>   >   >  > dependant on the bedding compound (which can also be effected
by
>   >   >  > movement in
>   >   >  > the toe rail) and the sheer connection no longer works in
concert
>   with
>   >   >  > the
>   >   >  > chemical bond (per above).
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Roger Kingsland
>   >   >  > Chief Financial Officer (AKA, check writer)
>   >   >  > Mahina Manu, A30 #148
>   >   >  > N40°  29.288'
>   >   >  > W79°  54.228'
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > Author's Disclaimer; This email was produced exclusively by the
>   sender
>   >   >  > and,
>   >   >  > in the interest of expediency, without the benefit of editing
by
>   >   others.
>   >   >  > The sender, thank goodness, is a much better architect/sailor
than
>   >   >  > speller/editor and, frankly, constantly laments an obvious flaw
in
>   >   >  > "spell
>   >   >  > check," it does not know what the author is thinking.  Please
>   accept
>   >   the
>   >   >  > sender's sincere apologies for any "typos" that may appear in
this
>   >   >  > document.
>   >   >  > If present, they are certainly unintended and hopefully do not
>   cloud
>   >   the
>   >   >  > message, or spawn any unnecessary lawsuits.
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >  > From: "Don Campbell" <dk.campbell at sympatico.ca>
>   >   >  > To: "Alberg 30 public list" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>   >   >  > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 11:44 AM
>   >   >  > Subject: Re: [Alberg30] Genoa Travler
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  >
>   >   >  > > The WTC fell when it went out of column and the support was
too
>   weak
>   >   >  > to
>   >   >  > hold the weight due to gravititational forces of the mass. Why
>   would
>   >   you
>   >   >  > want to try  to weaken the attachment
>   >   >  > > point for wind and genoa forces on an AL 30?
>   >   >  > >
>   >   >  > > "Roger L. Kingsland" wrote:
>   >   >  > >
>   >   >  > > > I have considered moving my genoa traveler inboard about 2"
so
>   I
>   >   >  > could
>   >   >  > attach it directly to the deck instead of the toe rail. Would
this
>   be
>   >   >  > permitted under the class racing rules?
>   >   >  > > >
>   >   >  > > > Roger L. Kingsland, AIA
>   >   >  > > > Managing Partner
>   >   >  > > > Kingsland Scott Bauer Associates (KSBA)
>   >   >  > > > N40° 27' 49"  W79° 57' 59"
>   >   >  > > > 3441 Butler Street
>   >   >  > > > Pittsburgh, PA 15201
>   >   >  > > > www.ksba.com
>   >   >  > > >
>   >   >  > > > 1(412) 252-1500 X101 - Office & Voice Mail
>   >   >  > > > 1(412) 779-5101 - Mobile (no voice mail)
>   >   >  > > > 1(412) 252-1510 - Fax
>   >   >  > > >
>   >   >  > > >
>   +---------------------------------------------------------------+
>   >   >  > > >  |                This Old Boat by Don Casey
>   |
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>    +---------------------------------------------------------------+
>    |                This Old Boat by Don Casey                     |
>    | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071579931/alberg30-20 |
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>
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>   Include command "unsubscribe <password>" in subject or body.
>   Use command "help" for more options.
>  +---------------------------------------------------------------+
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>  +---------------------------------------------------------------+
>
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 +---------------------------------------------------------------+
 |                This Old Boat by Don Casey                     |
 | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071579931/alberg30-20 |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------+

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