[Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell

Wed Jun 8 07:36:19 PDT 2005

Mike;
    You might be interested to know that an IR solar panel was developed this
past year at the University of Toronto.  The efficiency is about 35% compared to
roughly 10 % for UV. The fear is that the current owners of UV technology will
buy out the patents and shelve it because it will make all the current UV
technology obsolete in a minute. IR will work through cloud cover and from
reflected night- time radiation, a benefit of increased insolation of the
atmospheric greenhouse gases. From what I have read, most internal combustion
engines that are gasoline fueled are in the neighbourhood of 35-40% and diesels
are about 50% efficient, so the replacement of A-4s with IR solar should be
about on a par. with the exception of an energy storage system. I suppose if we
wanted the maximum in power, we would be like the railways and go to diesel
-electric. GM make the big ones just down the road from here in London,  Ont. an
we could sink a boat easily with one of those.
    The other  thing that you neglected to mention for Roger is that energy can
only be either kinetic or potential. What we often call energy is merely a
storage medium (gasoline , oil, steam or U238) that requires a transfer system
to effect energy use. Thus, for energy transfer,  there  is a requirement for a
gradient to allow energy to transfer and this is usually a temperature gradient.
Once a steam based transfer system heated up the engine compartment, the
temperature gradient would be very small and the efficiency of steam as a means
of energy transfer, according to simple physics of the second law of
thermodynamics,  would defeat the transfer. Glowing in the dark, or storing vast
quantites of hydrogen would certainly be the way to go for Roger.
    Temperature gradient is still required though, regardless of the transfer
system employed. Fortunately, we have water available when the boat is floating
to act as a heat sink and afford a temperature gradient before we consider the
effect of evaporative cooling if we need it, which will increase the cooling
capacity even more.
Don # 528

"Meinhold, Michael J" wrote:

> Roger-
>  Despite my nattering negativity, I firmly believe the future for small
> auxiliary power is electric drive, but with solar power as the main power
> source. If the technology dollars were pushed the right way, we could have
> solar cells that could be painted on every deck surface and integrated into
> the sails - and they would be 75-85% efficient. You would pick up a couple
> of fuel cells on the way to the dock for extra power.
>
> I think we could be there in 5 years, but likely not for 10.
>
> Mike
> Rinn Duin #272
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org]On Behalf Of Roger L Kingsland
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:07 PM
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell
>
> Mike,
>
> As usual, great feedback. I didn't know about the clean water part and
> haven't included an osmosis water maker in the steam propulsion budget.
> Thank goodness the several thousand hours left (I hope) on the Iron Genny
> affords me some time to watch the technology mature.  Fuel Cells might have
> some promise as well if we can figure out the hydrogen distribution and
> storage thing (isn't that the stuff they put in the Hindenburg).  At least
> their byproduct is clean water (that I might be able to sell to folks with
> steam generators).  The lure of electric seems to be the peace; imaging
> booking along at 5 knots (well, maybe 3 knots) on a calm day with no noise,
> smell or vibration and actually being able to talk to someone below from the
> cockpit.  It also gives me time to look into nuclear, or as Carter and Bush
> like say, "new queue leer."  I like the idea of the whole boat glowing in
> the dark, especially during night parades or in shipping lanes.
>
> All the best,
>
> Roger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Meinhold, Michael J" <MICHAEL.J.MEINHOLD at saic.com>
> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:48 PM
> Subject: RE: [Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell
>
> > Roger -
> >    Steam was the way boats were propelled until the internal combustion
> > engine matured enough to make it practical for marine application. Now you
> > only see steam where people have excess heat to get rid of (like a nuclear
> > plant) or where they have fuel they can't use in a diesel engine - crude
> oil
> > or natural gas. Steam may seem simpler, but it's just working fluid - an
> > energy storage medium that adds another layer of systems between
> combustion
> > and mechanical action. You have to burn something to make steam, and you
> > can't make steam from seawater, so you have to clean it - cleaner than
> > drinking water.  All this applies to a steam turbine, a reciprocating
> steam
> > engine, or a steam-based jet like Pursuit Dynamics. Since they are sending
> > all the steam out the jet, they have to make a lot of clean water to move
> a
> > boat.
> >
> > I see what they are doing to mix sauces, but I don't see how they are
> > extracting the heat energy of steam to create a propulsive force!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
> > [mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org]On Behalf Of Roger L Kingsland
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:19 AM
> > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> > Subject: Re: [Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell
> >
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > I looked into electric and Mike Minehold set me straight with his sobering
> > numbers.  Also, I recently got a notice from one of the companies I
> > contacted indicating they had a marine "package."  I got prices; over
> > $10,000 for 2/3 the power I now have at the same weight as my diesel.
> This
> > is WITHOUT any power source; batteries, solar cells, wind generator or
> > diesel generator.
> >
> > I am holding out for steam power
> (http://www.pursuitdynamics.com/marine.php)
> > which seems to be the next "big idea" in propulsion.  I spoke with the
> > Pursuit Dynamics' US Rep who said they are focusing on the food service
> > industry before adding marine.  Of course, something will still need to be
> > burned to produce the steam but I assume a steam generator is way simpler
> > than an internal combustion engine.
> >
> > RE diesel smell, I agree; it stinks and, for me, encourages mal de mare.
> I
> > don't know how effective it will be, but I moved my fuel tank to below the
> > cockpit so all diesel is in one compartment.  I also have a separate
> > ventilation system for everything aft of the cabin.  Air flows through
> > cockpit lockers first then though engine compartment.   I put the exhaust
> > fan at the downstream end of the air flow (aft end of engine compartment).
> > This should put the engine compartment under negative pressure which I
> hope
> > will prevent diesel smell from getting into the cabin.
> >
> > Just for yucks, I looked at a 50 footer last week while I was in Miami on
> > business.  It was closed up tight and had a strong diesel smell.  The
> broker
> > told me that Bounce fabric softener absorbs diesel smell.  I guess you
> just
> > place fresh sheets on the engine cover.
> >
> > Roger Kingsland
> > Chief Boat Boy, Rubber/Scraper, Check Writer and Splash Dreamer
> > Alberg 30 #148, "PERFECT intentions"
> > N40-33.92, W79-51.25
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dan walker" <dsailormon at yahoo.com>
> > To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:45 PM
> > Subject: [Public-list] electric repower
> >
> >
> > > as many know, i have been slowly moving towards repowering from gas to
> > diesel. then i started thinking about going to electric. stumbled on ngc's
> > website, and now see their name as a sponsor for the alberg 30 site.
> looked
> > to see if anyone has done this in the group but found no refernces. so,
> has
> > anyone had any experience in this area? diesel smell has always nauseated
> me
> > so this method has a lot of appeal
> > > constructive comments are welcome
> > > dan
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
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