[Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell

Wed Jun 8 07:46:08 PDT 2005

Don,
http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050110-832.asp
Cheers
Jack

Don Campbell wrote:
> Mike;
>     You might be interested to know that an IR solar panel was developed this
> past year at the University of Toronto.  The efficiency is about 35% compared to
> roughly 10 % for UV. The fear is that the current owners of UV technology will
> buy out the patents and shelve it because it will make all the current UV
> technology obsolete in a minute. IR will work through cloud cover and from
> reflected night- time radiation, a benefit of increased insolation of the
> atmospheric greenhouse gases. From what I have read, most internal combustion
> engines that are gasoline fueled are in the neighbourhood of 35-40% and diesels
> are about 50% efficient, so the replacement of A-4s with IR solar should be
> about on a par. with the exception of an energy storage system. I suppose if we
> wanted the maximum in power, we would be like the railways and go to diesel
> -electric. GM make the big ones just down the road from here in London,  Ont. an
> we could sink a boat easily with one of those.
>     The other  thing that you neglected to mention for Roger is that energy can
> only be either kinetic or potential. What we often call energy is merely a
> storage medium (gasoline , oil, steam or U238) that requires a transfer system
> to effect energy use. Thus, for energy transfer,  there  is a requirement for a
> gradient to allow energy to transfer and this is usually a temperature gradient.
> Once a steam based transfer system heated up the engine compartment, the
> temperature gradient would be very small and the efficiency of steam as a means
> of energy transfer, according to simple physics of the second law of
> thermodynamics,  would defeat the transfer. Glowing in the dark, or storing vast
> quantites of hydrogen would certainly be the way to go for Roger.
>     Temperature gradient is still required though, regardless of the transfer
> system employed. Fortunately, we have water available when the boat is floating
> to act as a heat sink and afford a temperature gradient before we consider the
> effect of evaporative cooling if we need it, which will increase the cooling
> capacity even more.
> Don # 528
> 
> "Meinhold, Michael J" wrote:
> 
> 
>>Roger-
>> Despite my nattering negativity, I firmly believe the future for small
>>auxiliary power is electric drive, but with solar power as the main power
>>source. If the technology dollars were pushed the right way, we could have
>>solar cells that could be painted on every deck surface and integrated into
>>the sails - and they would be 75-85% efficient. You would pick up a couple
>>of fuel cells on the way to the dock for extra power.
>>
>>I think we could be there in 5 years, but likely not for 10.
>>
>>Mike
>>Rinn Duin #272
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
>>[mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org]On Behalf Of Roger L Kingsland
>>Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:07 PM
>>To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>Subject: Re: [Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell
>>
>>Mike,
>>
>>As usual, great feedback. I didn't know about the clean water part and
>>haven't included an osmosis water maker in the steam propulsion budget.
>>Thank goodness the several thousand hours left (I hope) on the Iron Genny
>>affords me some time to watch the technology mature.  Fuel Cells might have
>>some promise as well if we can figure out the hydrogen distribution and
>>storage thing (isn't that the stuff they put in the Hindenburg).  At least
>>their byproduct is clean water (that I might be able to sell to folks with
>>steam generators).  The lure of electric seems to be the peace; imaging
>>booking along at 5 knots (well, maybe 3 knots) on a calm day with no noise,
>>smell or vibration and actually being able to talk to someone below from the
>>cockpit.  It also gives me time to look into nuclear, or as Carter and Bush
>>like say, "new queue leer."  I like the idea of the whole boat glowing in
>>the dark, especially during night parades or in shipping lanes.
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>Roger
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Meinhold, Michael J" <MICHAEL.J.MEINHOLD at saic.com>
>>To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:48 PM
>>Subject: RE: [Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell
>>
>>
>>>Roger -
>>>   Steam was the way boats were propelled until the internal combustion
>>>engine matured enough to make it practical for marine application. Now you
>>>only see steam where people have excess heat to get rid of (like a nuclear
>>>plant) or where they have fuel they can't use in a diesel engine - crude
>>
>>oil
>>
>>>or natural gas. Steam may seem simpler, but it's just working fluid - an
>>>energy storage medium that adds another layer of systems between
>>
>>combustion
>>
>>>and mechanical action. You have to burn something to make steam, and you
>>>can't make steam from seawater, so you have to clean it - cleaner than
>>>drinking water.  All this applies to a steam turbine, a reciprocating
>>
>>steam
>>
>>>engine, or a steam-based jet like Pursuit Dynamics. Since they are sending
>>>all the steam out the jet, they have to make a lot of clean water to move
>>
>>a
>>
>>>boat.
>>>
>>>I see what they are doing to mix sauces, but I don't see how they are
>>>extracting the heat energy of steam to create a propulsive force!
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: public-list-bounces at alberg30.org
>>>[mailto:public-list-bounces at alberg30.org]On Behalf Of Roger L Kingsland
>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:19 AM
>>>To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>>Subject: Re: [Public-list] electric repower, steam and diesel smell
>>>
>>>
>>>Dan,
>>>
>>>I looked into electric and Mike Minehold set me straight with his sobering
>>>numbers.  Also, I recently got a notice from one of the companies I
>>>contacted indicating they had a marine "package."  I got prices; over
>>>$10,000 for 2/3 the power I now have at the same weight as my diesel.
>>
>>This
>>
>>>is WITHOUT any power source; batteries, solar cells, wind generator or
>>>diesel generator.
>>>
>>>I am holding out for steam power
>>
>>(http://www.pursuitdynamics.com/marine.php)
>>
>>>which seems to be the next "big idea" in propulsion.  I spoke with the
>>>Pursuit Dynamics' US Rep who said they are focusing on the food service
>>>industry before adding marine.  Of course, something will still need to be
>>>burned to produce the steam but I assume a steam generator is way simpler
>>>than an internal combustion engine.
>>>
>>>RE diesel smell, I agree; it stinks and, for me, encourages mal de mare.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>don't know how effective it will be, but I moved my fuel tank to below the
>>>cockpit so all diesel is in one compartment.  I also have a separate
>>>ventilation system for everything aft of the cabin.  Air flows through
>>>cockpit lockers first then though engine compartment.   I put the exhaust
>>>fan at the downstream end of the air flow (aft end of engine compartment).
>>>This should put the engine compartment under negative pressure which I
>>
>>hope
>>
>>>will prevent diesel smell from getting into the cabin.
>>>
>>>Just for yucks, I looked at a 50 footer last week while I was in Miami on
>>>business.  It was closed up tight and had a strong diesel smell.  The
>>
>>broker
>>
>>>told me that Bounce fabric softener absorbs diesel smell.  I guess you
>>
>>just
>>
>>>place fresh sheets on the engine cover.
>>>
>>>Roger Kingsland
>>>Chief Boat Boy, Rubber/Scraper, Check Writer and Splash Dreamer
>>>Alberg 30 #148, "PERFECT intentions"
>>>N40-33.92, W79-51.25
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "dan walker" <dsailormon at yahoo.com>
>>>To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:45 PM
>>>Subject: [Public-list] electric repower
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>as many know, i have been slowly moving towards repowering from gas to
>>>
>>>diesel. then i started thinking about going to electric. stumbled on ngc's
>>>website, and now see their name as a sponsor for the alberg 30 site.
>>
>>looked
>>
>>>to see if anyone has done this in the group but found no refernces. so,
>>
>>has
>>
>>>anyone had any experience in this area? diesel smell has always nauseated
>>
>>me
>>
>>>so this method has a lot of appeal
>>>
>>>>constructive comments are welcome
>>>>dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>Discover Yahoo!
>>>> Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it
>>>
>>>out!
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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