[Public-list] roller furling sail conversion and badly made sails

Fri Feb 17 11:27:47 PST 2006

Gees Don - you're not jumping up and down on the head of any sailmaker that 
makes you a bad sail and won't even come down to look at it, let alone 
resolve it himself - I'd return the sail to him and demand my money back - 
if he refused I'd drop the $50 CDN fee down on the desk and have the slob in 
small claims court so fast his head would spin.

Ok - Maybe its the 7 years I spent in NYC coming out in me but .....

I hear this story over and over from people - they are making a custom sail 
for you and you are buying in good faith, if the thing is no good they have 
to remedy it to your satisfaction, build a replacement or give you your 
money back.
After all would you pay for a suit from Moore's that didn't fit right or was 
lop sided. Of course not.

On RFs: When we went to a Schaeffer RF we bought new sails from Triton, and 
they are great sails - no problem. They have no trouble coming down to your 
boat or fixing a boo boo or whatever. Didn't put foam on the sail, optimized 
as a #1 and a good #2 and used UV dacron covering. Wouldn't change any of it 
and accept the compromise with foam or sunbrella now. Had the old sails 
converted to luff tape and have never used them - but they are there if the 
good one gets damaged.

My experience anyway.

Cheers,
John

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don Campbell" <dk.campbell at sympatico.ca>
To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at alberg30.org>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Public-list] roller furling sail conversion

Matthew and Mike;
    Sail shape is the main determinate of the driving force for a sail plan 
The
greatest power is achieved with the foresail. I have just had a major 
problem
with a brand new 150 foresail, that I have been unable to trim to the shape 
I
have wanted when it is flying. It has not provided a smooth shape and has 
not
trimmed easily. Thus it has not had any power for the boat either. Since the
mian part of the driving force comes form the foresail, I have been very
disappointed. (I have even tried to have Towney solve the problem for me by
lending him the sail when he was here, and he made the comment that this was 
not
an easily trimmed sail and he did not like it,  but could not just put his
finger on the problem either.) The maker has been unwilling to come to look 
at
it on the boat,  so I have been at wits end to try to figure out where the
problem lies and have partially solved it with the maker on one hand, ( too
light a fabric)  and with help from my preferred sailmaker at Triton. After
pinning the sail to the loft floor, the arc on the luff was almost straight 
and
towards the head, almost inverted. Thus there is not enough material to 
allow
for a draft without creases in the foil surface.
    The decision to convert from hank on clips to a tape rather than buy a 
sail
with a tape  for roller furling is one that I would suggest depends upon the
condition of the current sails. By that I mean how stretched the fabric is 
now,
compared to when it was new,  - most easily measured by the change in sail 
draft
depth and/or position. There may also be stretch on the luff length.  I 
would
suggest that when one rolls any blown out sail onto a furler to attempt to
reduce sail,  (which is not really what these units are designed for),  the
shape goes from blown out to worse,  regardless of whether the luff has had 
hank
on clips previously or has always had a tape.  Adding a foam pad in the luff
certainly increases the bluntness of the angle of attack, and is a 
performance
factor to consider because it will be there for 100 % of the sailing with 
full
sail, and worse when it is wound into any reefed sail luff. Since the  sail
shape is dependant upon the arc on the luff,  and if that arc is different
between the cut for hank on clips  and the cut for a tape for either roller
furling or a tuf-luff groove, I think you had better question what the 
sailmaker
is doing. The problem when one reefs using roller furling is that the arc 
that
is on the luff at the sail edge is not the same as the arc on the sail that 
now
becomes the leading edge where you stop for the reef. This forces an 
unnatural
shape into the sail and compromises both shape and performance. I reiterate 
that
these units are known as furling units not reefing units.
Don #528

Mike Lehman wrote:

> Matthew,
>
> I was faced with this same decision a few years ago when I too converted 
> to
> a Schaeffer 1100 (nice system). I opted for a brand new sail rather than
> convert a hank-on to roller furling. With a converted hank-on sail the 
> shape
> gets really bad as you roll it up. The more you furl the sail, the worst 
> the
> shape becomes. Sails that are made for roller furling have a foam luff 
> that
> helps keep the shape as the sail gets smaller (at least mine does). This
> does not mean you can go from a #1 to a "working jib" without loosing sail
> shape and performance, but it does mean you can go from say 150% to 135% 
> and
> still maintain good shape. I bought mine from Bank Sails in Annapolis and
> have been happy with it. I have forgoteen the guys name, but he closed up
> the loft and I think went to work for North. For used sails, try Bacons in
> Annapolis.
>
> Mike Lehman
> ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Matthew Hay" <haymatthew_ at hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at alberg30.org>
> To: public-list at alberg30.org
> Subject: [Public-list] roller furling sail conversion
> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:20:34 -0500
>
> Matthew Hay #314
>
> I am installing a Schaefer 1100 series roller furler on my 1969 alberg 30.
> In your experience what is more cost effective: to convert an older 
> hank-on
> sail that is in semi-good shape or to buy a new/used jib (perhaps larger
> then I have) that is already furler ready?  If the latter, where would you
> purchase such a sail  (preferably used to save money).
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Matthew #314 "Renard"
>
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