[Public-List] drogue link
brooks.glenn at comcast.net
brooks.glenn at comcast.net
Tue Apr 12 11:30:01 PDT 2011
Here is a link to a vendor who invented the Jordan series drogue .
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/
It has some interesting comments about drogues versus sea anchors. The author has pretty strong opinions for one who is a bit short on sea time. He really doesn't seem to know about multiple diagonal wave patterns, winds against counter currents, sudden shifts in wind direction from occuled fronts etc as it effects sea state... Nevertheless, the series drogue seems like a great idea, and the discussion is very interesting. Also have seen some really outraged replies from sea anchor vendors.
Alan Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" makes the same argument as the Jordan drogue guy, for a long warp and drag point at the end, extending over two or more wave periods, e.g up to 600' or more. The whole idea is to keep the anchor/drogue buried in the ocean well beyond the influence of the wave that is pushing the boat back and forth. If I remember correctly, short warps get tossed around and surge forward by the same wave that pushes the boat...
I am planning on buying the Jordan drogue as I am sold on the idea of a long warp with many cones dragging across several wave periods. My experience from gill netting in Alaska is that with a 900' gillnet dragging off the bow (or stern), boats will stand up to almost any sea. Controlled drift with stern to the wind is much safer and comfortable in really heavy weather.
BTW, one doesnt actually 'pull in' the sea anchor/drogue, you have to winch the boat back to the drogue ( or sea anchor). Most of the reports suggest the wind needs to die down below 30kts before retrieval- small price to pay after a big storm
Cheers
Glenn b
Dolce 319
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net>
To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:49:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Anchoring
The purpose of a drogue is to retard the boat's forward movement...it's
really a steering and speed control rather than any sort of moor.
Miles Smeeton's book 'Once is Enough' in which he relates his first two
unsuccessful attempts to round Cape Horn include descriptions of using
various drogues in extreme weather. By the way he made it on his third try,
his was the first yacht to survive a east to west rounding. Another fellow
made it in the 1930's but nobody knew he'd made it until the wreck of his
yacht was found on the Pacific side decades later....
Another writer commented while describing drogue deployment that one should
not make a drogue fast to anything one would mind losing.... The forces
generated are extreme and it is generally considered impossible to recover a
drogue once it is deployed. Writers talk about tripping lines to invert the
drogue and thereby make them easier to recover...but in practice it is
extremely difficult to keep the trip line from wrapping with the drogue's
main line.
This is getting long, sorry...here's one more story...
Pim of WINDWARD, (a new subscriber to this list) and I were sailing downwind
in quite large seas on a Misery Trip one year. We were towing my heavy
Boston Whaler Squall dinghy on a 100' line. I was curious about the effect
the dinghy would have on my steering but have to report that I noticed
nothing. The wind was over 35kts, SURPRISE was never below hull speed and
while on the face of waves surfed up to 10kts regularly. The dinghy was
putting terrific strain on the tow line but I never felt it in the helm.
Maybe it steadied us but I don't think so. For its part, sometimes the
dinghy would catch the following wave and come way up to us surfing on one
side or the other with the line in a big bight. Then once it had lost its
own wave, SURPRISE would surge ahead as if to say 'back in line, you!'.
Once or twice we jerked it right through the top few feet of a wave.... I
was quite concerned that a sea might throw it into the cockpit on top of us,
which would have been quite something, but never even came close to
happening.
All that made me think about drogues and downwind steering in heavy seas...
I guess it wasn't blowing hard enough!
Pim - are you out there? Remember that day?
Gord #426 Surprise
On 12/04/11 1:32 PM, "Roger L. Kingsland" <r.kingsland at ksba.com> wrote:
> Thanks all for the anchoring lessons. I guess the difference between towing
> a drogue and anchoring by the stern is the boat is still moving with a
> drogue, giving the stern an opportunity rise above the waves. If anybody is
> interested, I would love to hear thoughts on the pros and cons of sea
> anchors vs. drogues.
>
> Of course, from all of this discussion, a good politician would conclude the
> best compromise is to anchor beam to the wind.
>
> Gord & Mike - I have to admit that sometimes, when I get pissed, I then go
> and get pissed.
>
> Roger 148
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Laco
> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:54 PM
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Anchoring
>
> Now Mike - I should mention that outside the USA the expression "I got
> pissed" means the speaker became intoxicated....
>
>
> On 12/04/11 12:35 PM, "Mike Lehman" <Sail_505 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I anchored stern to the wind only one time...by mistake. I was a stake
> boat
>> in the Canadian/Chesapeake races one year. I was alone on board. I
> anchored
>> in 80 feet of water about 50 yards downwind of the turning mark. It was
> one
>> of those days when the wind was about 25 out of the North and there was
>> about 4-6 chop on the Bay. When the race was over, I had to retrieve the
>> buoy (a large orange ball). I cold not get it on deck from the bow, so I
>> circled around and picked it up over the stern. As I was hauling it in a
> big
>> wave forced me to let it go and when I did the line paid out so fast that
> it
>> wrapped around a cleat hand held fast. I was careful not to get tangled in
>> the free line, but now I was anchored stern to and did not have enough
>> strength to release the line from the cleat. So I put the boat in full
>> reverse and was backing and pulling against the waves and the wind. One
>> particularly large wave came over the stern and over the stern pulpit
>> hitting me about knee high, I turned to look at the cockpit which was full
>> to the seat lockers. I got pissed, put the boat in forward and pulled the
>> anchor free. Once I hauled everything on deck, I swore I would never
> anchor
>> stern to again.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Roger L. Kingsland
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:02 AM
>> To: 'Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all'
>> Subject: [Public-List] Anchoring
>>
>> PS (to anchoring question below) - has anyone actually tried anchoring
> stern
>> to the wind?
>>
>> Relative to anchoring, has anyone tried paying out sufficient scope on the
>> deck (with the last 30' outside the stays and stanchions) and dropping the
>> anchor and chain form the stern? The anchor could then be set w/ boat
> going
>> forward rather than in reverse. Those preferring a bow to the wind
> attitude
>> could then let the last 30' go and switch the rhode from the stern to the
>> bow. Might work well when short handed or alone.
>>
>> Roger 148
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Laco
>> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 8:29 AM
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Reversing the A-30
>>
>> Good morning Stephen -
>>
>> I think what you are getting at is that between the weathercocking issue
> and
>> prop walk the boat will 'walk' herself up stern to the wind if one runs
> the
>> engine in reverse for a prolonged time while setting the anchor. Here's
>> what we do. Again, sorry this is so long...
>>
>> When anchoring we line the boat up head to wind, or rather slightly to
>> starboard of head to wind. When using the engine we give it a hard burp
> in
>> reverse put sternway on then put it in neutral again. Once the chain is
>> paid out sufficiently we let it snub gently then give it a hard pull with
>> the engine, again in one or more hard burps. By starting off with her
> head
>> to one side of head to wind, you give yourself some 'room' for the prop
> walk
>> to occur before it becomes annoying.
>>
>> When anchoring under sail, we make our approach with the headsail furled,
>> under the main alone. We turn up into the wind with the main luffing then
>> use it to stop where we want to put the anchor by pushing the boom out to
>> the shrouds - effectively backing it and generating power in reverse.
> Down
>> goes the anchor when sternway is on.... The chain or rope is snubbed when
>> enough is out. It doesn't matter much if the boat has yawed while backing
>> down so long as the anchor gets its encouragement to set.
>>
>> If it is windy and the boat starts 'hunting' back and forth we set a very
>> small jib (actually from a Mirror class dinghy) along the backstay sheeted
>> amidships. That stops the boat's desire to turn downwind and she lies
>> peacefully.
>>
>> I forget if I asked before... Is your boat the one I saw at jetty adjacent
>> to S.A.L.T.S a few years ago?
>>
>> Soon we'll be sailing here and doing what I described above!
>>
>> Gord #426 SURPRISE
>>
>>
>> On 04/04/11 2:06 AM, "Stephen Gwyn" <gwyn at beluga.phys.uvic.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> OK, how about anchoring? You always have your head into
>>> the wind, and the boat always want to weathercock the other
>>> way. And you need to back down hard to set the anchor;
>>> gently setting the anchor is a waste of time.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>> #495 Quasar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Stephen Gwyn | Tel: 1-250-363-3136
>>> Dept. of Physics & Astronomy | Fax: 1-250-363-0045
>>> Univ. of Victoria | Cell: 1-250-885-6969
>>> PO Box 3055 | E-mail: gwyn at uvastro.phys.uvic.ca
>>> Victoria, BC V8W 3P6 | http://orca.phys.uvic.ca/~gwyn
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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