[Public-List] Public-List Digest, Vol 2469, Issue 1
Clayton Zimmerman
cb_zimmerman at hotmail.com
Sat Oct 27 07:24:23 PDT 2012
Kirk, jumping on here, yes, I too have the prop-to-rudder contact issue. You can see a few pics of the damage from 2 months of learning the boat at: www.optimisticwanderings.tumblr.com Essentially the prop is shaving the rudder.
Tanager, #349 was re-powered with a 35hp Yanmar diesel. An engine that big requires a larger prop......what do you have for power? Interestingly, while doing 6kts and freewheeling, I can't seem to get the prop to touch the rudder no matter how hard I pull the rudder over......... I'm in the process of re-glassing the damage and will have pics up soon. For the meantime I've just become REALLY aware of the danger and have managed to avoid further shavings. Cheers,Clayton
> From: public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: Public-List Digest, Vol 2469, Issue 1
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 07:13:42 -0700
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Rudder stops and stern tubes. (brooks.glenn at comcast.net)
> 2. blue water cruising (brooks.glenn at comcast.net)
> 3. Re: Rudder stops and stern tubes. (Jeffrey)
> 4. Re: Rudder stops and stern tubes. (John Boor)
> 5. A-30 Circumnavigators (Michael Connolly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 06:46:29 +0000 (UTC)
> From: brooks.glenn at comcast.net
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Rudder stops and stern tubes.
> Message-ID:
> <1731848010.736996.1351320389647.JavaMail.root at sz0007a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hi Kirk,
>
>
> Very good questions. I hope others on the list will add some more knowledgeable comments as I missed my opportunity to head into the Pacific and follow you around this summer and but do intend to start out next spring. Would like to have the shaft log thing nailed down with certainty before then.
>
>
> I've wondered about the stern tube setup myself, when I replaced it 6 years ago. It still concerns me as I dont yet know the what is the best overall fix. When I bought Dolce, I did use 5200 to rebed ( stern tube and rudder post) at the time and it still seems good as new today. I did remove ALL the old grey putty and replaced the putty with 5200 to act as both adhesive and as a sealant. Actually used 5200 in two or three applications over a week to fill in the entire void in the prop shaft where the old one and putty used to be. after one application cured a bit for a couple of days, I used more, eventually filling the entire void throughout the full length of the rudder tube inside the hull. So far it seems to beholding and does not leak, except through the packing gland.
>
>
>
> As to glassing it in, I do not believe that is a viable idea. My rudder post was glassed in and it spun out and broke loose when I tried to open the packing nut on the inside end. It was already leaking at the time and my attempt to renew the gland material resulted in complete failure. Not good if one where out in the middle of the ocean. so I ended up taking the assembly out and reinstalling and rebedding with liberal amounts of 5200 on the outboard side, then added massive fiberglass reinforcement inside the hull when I pyut everything back together. I reasoned the 5200 would seal the rudder tube from water entry, and the FG reinforcement would add strength and rigiditi from the inside to keep it from twisting and breaking loose. so far, it does not leak as it used to when there was nothing but putty and a smaller bit of glass work holding it in place.
>
>
> I have come to learn two things about glassing in packing glands from that experience: 1) the fiberglass work will break loose when torqued or hit with a sharp striking blow such is in grounding and as will epoxy filler, and 2) a fiberglass bound will leak. Water will work its way between the glass and the metal tubing, as FG does not bond chemically with the metal, mearly coats it, and 3) 5200 on the outside ( to seal water out) and massive FB buildup inside the hull to hold the assembly in place seems to be a good one-two punch solution. So I like 5200 for the adhesive and flex/shock absorption properties in the stern tube and rudder tube. 4200 is even better as it sets up in 24 hours where as 5200 is slow curing over a week. Use the "permanent" bound grade material.
>
>
> Not sure why your prop hits the rudder. mine does not. so maybe your prop is set to far aft on the prop shaft, or the rudder aperture isnt big enough, or maybe the prop diameter is a bit oversized?? I think my prop is in the neighborrhodd of 3 bladed 12" diameter. Be interesting if you could post a picture for the list to look at, as i know others have said there are several different rudder styles over the years.
>
>
> Best of luck with your repairs!
>
>
> Glenn
> Dolce #318
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Little" <kirkalittle at hotmail.com>
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 5:11:34 PM
> Subject: [Public-List] Rudder stops and stern tubes.
>
>
> It's been nearly three long weeks here on the hard in Trinidad making up for 4 years of sailing and not hauling out onto the hard short of careening between the tides for bottom paint in Madagascar and 3 days on a trailer in Australia. So this discussion about 5200 got me thinking about my stern tube?, that bronze pipe that threads onto the cutlass bearing housing and the stuffing box. The first time I replaced the cutlass bearing 5 years ago the stern pipe came out with the housing and I thought nothing of it, just re-bed the tube and housing together with 5200 and no problems. Even now when I took it out again it was not too much trouble to remove the old 5200 (chisel and sand paper) and re-bed it. But the other folks here in the marina looked at me like I broke my boat when the tube came out telling me it should be glassed in and never removed?! On the Alberg 30 there is probably half of an inch of glass there where it protrudes out so not a lot of surface area for ep
> oxy/glass to lock it in, then there is just a bunch of pliable grey putty, so I just glued it back in with 5200 as before and suspect its fine but it did get me wondering if it should come out so easily or not, any thoughts?
>
> As for 5200, IMHO, it is the way to go for most things that you don't want to take apart on a regular basis (like a through hull), I can't ever remember it failing as a sealant or a glue. Yes, it is a bit of effort to rebed later on but I've always managed to get everything cleaned up with the combination of steal brush, sanding, chisel, and even the grinder on rare occasions, but I'm always grateful that it holds on so well so I don't mind. Some places well off the beaten path where it's impossible to obtain I've seen it traded amongst cruisers as if it was gold, even when sikaflex was handy. One South African offered me a case of wine for an extra tube I was carrying when he had leaky spot on his steal boat near the mast where some wires were passing through.
>
> Lastly, I had my prop re-conditioned for the third time here. And I hardly use it but about once a year I put the engine in gear without remembering to fully lower the tiller. This allows the prop to actually hit the rudder when the tiller is hard over to either side and always puts a few nasty dings / bends in the prop blades. The only rudder stop I can find is the cockpit seats against the tiller which do the job but only if you have the tiller fully down, am I missing something or is there some kind of rudder stop that should keep me from doing this over and over? I couldn't find anything by searching the old list so any help or even links to old info is appreciated! Sorry for the long winded questions, Thanks -Kirk #504.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 07:08:13 +0000 (UTC)
> From: brooks.glenn at comcast.net
> To: alberg 30 <Public-list at alberg30.org>
> Subject: [Public-List] blue water cruising
> Message-ID:
> <713272643.737135.1351321693618.JavaMail.root at sz0007a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> Hello all stations!
>
>
> Michael and I have been working with George to publish information about A-30 voyagers who have sailed around the world. So far we have received great info from Yves, Kirk Little, and Paul Vibert - who is now in Mauritius departing for the Caribbean thence back to Ontario latter this year.
>
>
> I would like to ask if there are any Albergers who have accomplished blue water cruises that involved crossing at least one ocean, that we might also consider adding to our tribute? Particularly are there any voyagers from the pre-internet days that night be lost to history, that we could recognize? Voyagers currently in route are also very important, as we can follow their passage almost in real time - given gps signals, and the internet.... Sometimes early voyages get lost to history because there was no way to record the achievement, except write a book or have someone submit an article for publication -- things that most sailors arent necessary skilled in doing. I personally am interested in preserving the voyages of those who sail our craft, and with the advent of the on-line maps and web sites if we could record the first 50 years of sailing, perhaps it would stimulate interest in recording voyages to come...?
>
>
> Please send info about any blue water cruising you might have accomplaished, or that you know others have done. I will be happy to consolidate and work with George to put together some form of historical acknowledgement on the web. Please include voyage route, vessel name, hull number, hailing port, owner/captian name, crew names, bio and any pictures that might be an interesting representation of the voyage. I dont know how this will come out, but so far we have good response from our Circumnavigator's. Perhaps adding blue water cruises will help round out the history of the A-30 class.
>
>
> Thanks
> Glenn Brooks
> Dolce #318
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 07:59:26 -0400
> From: Jeffrey <fongemie at gmail.com>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Rudder stops and stern tubes.
> Message-ID:
> <CAMRY+95qNvgkDydnq3Vnkx7gqskDGvS14jv9GHaRX=Hnes8WJQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I have nothing to add regarding the stern tube, but my prop does not
> hit my rudder either.
>
> -Jeff
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:46 AM, <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Hi Kirk,
> >
> >
> > Very good questions. I hope others on the list will add some more knowledgeable comments as I missed my opportunity to head into the Pacific and follow you around this summer and but do intend to start out next spring. Would like to have the shaft log thing nailed down with certainty before then.
> >
> >
> > I've wondered about the stern tube setup myself, when I replaced it 6 years ago. It still concerns me as I dont yet know the what is the best overall fix. When I bought Dolce, I did use 5200 to rebed ( stern tube and rudder post) at the time and it still seems good as new today. I did remove ALL the old grey putty and replaced the putty with 5200 to act as both adhesive and as a sealant. Actually used 5200 in two or three applications over a week to fill in the entire void in the prop shaft where the old one and putty used to be. after one application cured a bit for a couple of days, I used more, eventually filling the entire void throughout the full length of the rudder tube inside the hull. So far it seems to beholding and does not leak, except through the packing gland.
> >
> >
> >
> > As to glassing it in, I do not believe that is a viable idea. My rudder post was glassed in and it spun out and broke loose when I tried to open the packing nut on the inside end. It was already leaking at the time and my attempt to renew the gland material resulted in complete failure. Not good if one where out in the middle of the ocean. so I ended up taking the assembly out and reinstalling and rebedding with liberal amounts of 5200 on the outboard side, then added massive fiberglass reinforcement inside the hull when I pyut everything back together. I reasoned the 5200 would seal the rudder tube from water entry, and the FG reinforcement would add strength and rigiditi from the inside to keep it from twisting and breaking loose. so far, it does not leak as it used to when there was nothing but putty and a smaller bit of glass work holding it in place.
> >
> >
> > I have come to learn two things about glassing in packing glands from that experience: 1) the fiberglass work will break loose when torqued or hit with a sharp striking blow such is in grounding and as will epoxy filler, and 2) a fiberglass bound will leak. Water will work its way between the glass and the metal tubing, as FG does not bond chemically with the metal, mearly coats it, and 3) 5200 on the outside ( to seal water out) and massive FB buildup inside the hull to hold the assembly in place seems to be a good one-two punch solution. So I like 5200 for the adhesive and flex/shock absorption properties in the stern tube and rudder tube. 4200 is even better as it sets up in 24 hours where as 5200 is slow curing over a week. Use the "permanent" bound grade material.
> >
> >
> > Not sure why your prop hits the rudder. mine does not. so maybe your prop is set to far aft on the prop shaft, or the rudder aperture isnt big enough, or maybe the prop diameter is a bit oversized?? I think my prop is in the neighborrhodd of 3 bladed 12" diameter. Be interesting if you could post a picture for the list to look at, as i know others have said there are several different rudder styles over the years.
> >
> >
> > Best of luck with your repairs!
> >
> >
> > Glenn
> > Dolce #318
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kirk Little" <kirkalittle at hotmail.com>
> > To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 5:11:34 PM
> > Subject: [Public-List] Rudder stops and stern tubes.
> >
> >
> > It's been nearly three long weeks here on the hard in Trinidad making up for 4 years of sailing and not hauling out onto the hard short of careening between the tides for bottom paint in Madagascar and 3 days on a trailer in Australia. So this discussion about 5200 got me thinking about my stern tube?, that bronze pipe that threads onto the cutlass bearing housing and the stuffing box. The first time I replaced the cutlass bearing 5 years ago the stern pipe came out with the housing and I thought nothing of it, just re-bed the tube and housing together with 5200 and no problems. Even now when I took it out again it was not too much trouble to remove the old 5200 (chisel and sand paper) and re-bed it. But the other folks here in the marina looked at me like I broke my boat when the tube came out telling me it should be glassed in and never removed?! On the Alberg 30 there is probably half of an inch of glass there where it protrudes out so not a lot of surface area for ep
> > oxy/glass to lock it in, then there is just a bunch of pliable grey putty, so I just glued it back in with 5200 as before and suspect its fine but it did get me wondering if it should come out so easily or not, any thoughts?
> >
> > As for 5200, IMHO, it is the way to go for most things that you don't want to take apart on a regular basis (like a through hull), I can't ever remember it failing as a sealant or a glue. Yes, it is a bit of effort to rebed later on but I've always managed to get everything cleaned up with the combination of steal brush, sanding, chisel, and even the grinder on rare occasions, but I'm always grateful that it holds on so well so I don't mind. Some places well off the beaten path where it's impossible to obtain I've seen it traded amongst cruisers as if it was gold, even when sikaflex was handy. One South African offered me a case of wine for an extra tube I was carrying when he had leaky spot on his steal boat near the mast where some wires were passing through.
> >
> > Lastly, I had my prop re-conditioned for the third time here. And I hardly use it but about once a year I put the engine in gear without remembering to fully lower the tiller. This allows the prop to actually hit the rudder when the tiller is hard over to either side and always puts a few nasty dings / bends in the prop blades. The only rudder stop I can find is the cockpit seats against the tiller which do the job but only if you have the tiller fully down, am I missing something or is there some kind of rudder stop that should keep me from doing this over and over? I couldn't find anything by searching the old list so any help or even links to old info is appreciated! Sorry for the long winded questions, Thanks -Kirk #504.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > These businesses support your Association:
> > http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> > Please support them.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-List mailing list
> > Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> > http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > These businesses support your Association:
> > http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> > Please support them.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-List mailing list
> > Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> > http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
>
> --
> Jeffrey Fongemie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:33:29 -0400
> From: "John Boor" <mahseer at kos.net>
> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all"
> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Rudder stops and stern tubes.
> Message-ID: <42478266b9bce9a392ca6949dc310b6d.squirrel at www.kos.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Kirk
>
> Check your prop distance from the cutlass bearing it should be no more
> than 1 shaft dia distance.
>
> John Boor
> Ex MAHSEER #380
>
> > Lastly, I had my prop re-conditioned for the third time here. And I
> > hardly use it but about once a year I put the engine in gear without
> > remembering to fully lower the tiller. This allows the prop to actually
> > hit the rudder when the tiller is hard over to either side and always puts
> > a few nasty dings / bends in the prop blades. The only rudder stop I can
> > find is the cockpit seats against the tiller which do the job but only if
> > you have the tiller fully down, am I missing something or is there some
> > kind of rudder stop that should keep me from doing this over and over? I
> > couldn't find anything by searching the old list so any help or even links
> > to old info is appreciated! Sorry for the long winded questions, Thanks
> > -Kirk #504.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > These businesses support your Association:
> > http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> > Please support them.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-List mailing list
> > Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> > http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Michael Connolly <crufone at comcast.net>
> To: "Alberg, Public List" <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Subject: [Public-List] A-30 Circumnavigators
> Message-ID:
> <1811441640.987691.1351347219305.JavaMail.root at sz0102a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> Glenn,
>
> Interesting tales. Good to check out the boat as not an A-30. I agree with Mike Lehman and the CBAA that we should keep listings of circumnavigators in their Handbook to A-30's only. The Web site is another matter and Geroge might agree to having other Alberg designs represented in some mention aside from a-30 circumnavigators. I see this other than A-30's list as getting a bit out of hand. After all Carl Alberg designed many, many boats most of which could make a circumnavigation.
>
> My original idea was to acknowledge the A-30's who have made the trip. I will continue to work with the CBAA to have that information published and preserved in their Handbook.
>
> Michael #133
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>
> From: "brooks glenn" <brooks.glenn at comcast.net>
> To: "Michael Connolly" <crufone at comcast.net>, "alberg 30" <Public-list at alberg30.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 7:13:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Circumnavigations
>
>
> Hey Michael,
>
>
> In regards to documenting A-30 Circumnavigators, here's some interesting stuff I have discovered ?about ?the life and times of ?two time Circumnavigator Richard Chew Zantzinger. Perhaps this will be of some interest to the list, so I have sent it along via the listserve.
>
>
> Richard and brother Billy, mentioned below, ?were heirs to a?prosperous?600 acre Maryland tobacco farm and life of leisure inspired by their father's extensive social and political accomplishments. ?Richard was a life long sailor who circumnavigated twice under the Burgee of the? Sailing Club of the Chesapeake (SCC1944.org)? ?in 1969-1970 and again in 1998 - 1992; both times aboard the Molly Brown, a 35' sloop of so far unknown design - although I expect it will prove to be an Alberg 35. ?The SCC awarded Zantzinger it's James H. Fox Memorial Cruise Medal (Gold Award for Circumnavigation) in 2012 for both voyages.?
>
>
> Richard wrote the ?book " The Log Of The Molly Brown" based on his experiences during the 1969 voyage. ?And quite a voyage it was. Characterized in Don Holmes book" The Circumnavigators: small boat voyages of modern times" as a world wide pub crawl to?imbibe?new forms of alcohol and defeat petty? bureaucracies ?where ever they were encountered. ?Amongst his achievements, he and the second of three girlfriends (on the cruise) brawled with Marlon Brando on the beach in?Tahiti,?then latter liberated a cargo of Rum from an unworthy schooner off Australia - whether with the owners permission or not is unclear. ? Richard achieved a certain?legitimacy? in 1993 when Sports Illustrated featured ?a definitely antipodal yachting story about his, shall I say, 'casual' approach to voyaging.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
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> Please support them.
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>
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