[Public-List] Bizzare electrical problem

Thu Apr 11 12:49:53 PDT 2013

If it is an Atomic 4 and has the multi-connector plug between the instrument 
panel and the engine, it is well worth checking. That plug carries a lot of 
current and I have seen cases where the plug has deformed from the heat and 
melted causing shorts. It's an easy fix...cut the wires on both sides, 
install a terminal strip, and match wire-for-wire on the terminal strip 
using good quality ring terminals.

~~~_/)_/)~~ Mike Lehman ~~_/)~~~

-----Original Message----- 
From: Kris Coward
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:53 AM
To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Bizzare electrical problem

I missed that too (though I haven't offered up any suggestions yet). Did
the engine manage to start? Either way, it sounds like your
ignition/starter wiring could use a go-over, since the timing of the
melt suggests that that's where the stray current is coming from.

Cheers,
Kris

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 07:43:59AM -0400, Mike Lehman wrote:
> Sorry, I misread the original post, I was not aware that the melting
> occurred while then engine was being started, which is why I
> suggested lightning.
>
>
>
>
> ~~~_/)_/)~~ Mike Lehman ~~_/)~~~
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Dennis K. Biby
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:48 PM
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Bizzare electrical problem
>
> Ahoy Glenn,
>
> Sorry for jumping in here but I'm a bit confused by some of the comments.
> Several folks are tossing around the term "impedance" ...  Just an FYI,
> impedance is basically the AC equivalent of DC resistance.  Not sure why
> impedance is a factor in your DC starter.
>
> Secondly, lightning is a possibility but only if the strike took place
> while you were cranking the engine.  Lightning could very well melt the
> coax insulation but I don't see how it would still be bubbling days later.
>
> My dos centavos is that your VHF coax shield is in contact with a positive
> 12 VDC.  It matters not whether it is contacting an outbound (positive
> voltage) or is on the return ground side of a "hot" source.
>
> Dennis
> s/v Ferrity
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Michael Connolly
> <crufone at comcast.net>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Glen,
> >
> >You mentioned in an earlier post that you hosed or washed down the engine
> >after doing some fiberglass work last spring. Might you have filled the
> >battery boxes full of wash water?
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >From: "Glennb" <brooks.glenn at comcast.net>
> >To: "alan schulman" <alan.schulman at gmail.com>, "Alberg 30 Public List --
> >open to all" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 11:55:05 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Public-List] Bizzare electrical problem
> >
> >As followup to my weird electrical problem, today I inspected the
> >batteries and starter system. Interestingly both batteries were wet on 
> >the
> >outside of their cases, and they were sitting In some small pool of water
> >in their battery cases.   Assume this is due to condensation somehow
> >working its way up from the bilge, although the rest of the FG'd areas in
> >the battery compartment were not wet with condensation.  (I built new
> >battery boxes under the cockpit floor two years ago when I rebuilt the
> >cockpit.  There is no way rain water could have dripped in through the
> >cockpit floor or hatch above.)
> >
> >Q: So, thinking about last weeks earlier comments on the list,  can wet
> >batteries sitting  in smallish pools of water (>1/4 cup) somehow cause
> >sufficient impedance in the electrical system to semi melt coax cable
> >attached to the backof a VHF radio, when the engine is started ???  This
> >seems beyond bizarre!
> >
> >As FYI, my battery ground and positive cables and connections are in good
> >visual shape, some slight corrosion on the engine ground, (such as one
> >would expect from one year of service); look  like new on the battery
> >terminals.  The batteries are new AGM deep cycle I installed last spring.
> >
> >The  battery ground, on the engine, had two or three years normal
> >corrosion on the grounding bolt, not bad looking.
> >
> > I started the engine once with each battery with no ill effect on any
> >wiring in the general area of the engine, including the radio antenna, so
> >again could not duplicate the overheated wire condition.
> >
> >Verified that The pushpit is not shorted or grounded to any electrical
> >circuit, but is grounded to the emergency VHF antenna via clamps that
> >attach the antenna to the structure.  I am going to find some insulated
> >clamps to,replace the hose clamps I presently use to attach the antenna 
> >to
> >the stanchion.
> >
> >I guess my next step will be to remove batteries and starter and go have
> >them bench checked.  Also will remove the engine ground, clean and
> >reinstall.
> >
> >A lot of trouble to do this as the starter is mounted on the lower back
> >(port) side of the engine, behind the alternator.  doable, but a
> >major pain
> > unless performed under nice 80 degree sunny weather conditions and
> >preemptively fortified with some high grade of chocolate and dorito 
> >rancho
> >cheese  snacks to a-swage the usual bursts of rage and doom which broach
> >forth when the alternator bolt or the one usable  wrench  slips out and
> >tumbles into the bilge.
> >
> >Gpb
> >
> >Sent from my iPad
> >
> >On Apr 7, 2013, at 6:16 PM, n4lbl <alan.schulman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'd be really interested in the quality of the starter battery ground.
> >> On Apr 7, 2013 2:09 PM, "Glennb" <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yep, thats kind of what I though.  So far as I know, the hull was dry,
> >>> except for sitting in the water at the slip.  iam going to go check 
> >>> for
> >a
> >>> short or ground to,the pushpit tomorrow. Still amazed a heavy gauge
> >>> shielded coax cable would heat up three feet away from the radio as
> >well as
> >>> the back side of the radio, with no damage to any of the much smaller
> >>> ground or positive wires leading to the  radio, or nearby parts of the
> >>> wiring system...
> >>>
> >>> Maybe iam thinking along the wrong lines.  Perhaps the impedance ran 
> >>> up
> >>> the radio ground wire from the negative bus to the back of the radio,
> >>> thence started to cook the coax? The radio,itself still works and only
> >the
> >>> heat sink on the back and rear part of the frame was hot.  Maybe had
> >>> nothing to do with the pushpit - which i still believe is isolated 
> >>> from
> >the
> >>> electrical system, except for the emergency antenna clamps.
> >>>
> >>> Still Weird!
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> Dolce 318
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> On Apr 7, 2013, at 12:23 PM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The glass in the hull can't carry a current, but moisture on it
> >>> certainly can.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2013-04-07, at 1:53 PM, Glennb <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I can see stray electrical currents, but can fiberglass hulls 
> >>>>> conduct
> >>> enough electrical energy to heat coax antenna cable to the melting
> >point???
> >>> Never thought that was possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Btw,  i havent looked into the battery compartment yet - under the
> >>> cockpit behind the engine- but everything is new back there this past
> >year.
> >>> Plus I did hose off the engine last spring as part of a serious 
> >>> cleanup
> >>> following a lot of FG and wood sanding .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gpb
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 7, 2013, at 8:54 AM, n4lbl <alan.schulman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> That was true, but,,,,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/battery.asp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >http://www.cartalk.com/content/business-batteries-and-concrete-floors-needs-be
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Don Campbell <
> >dk.campbell at xplornet.ca
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That is the quickest way to drain a battery that sits without 
> >>>>>>> being
> >>>>>>> recharged,  and if you set a battery onto concrete,  this
> >is the >>>>>> way
> >>> charge
> >>>>>>> is lost to ground, i.e. through condensation between the
> >battery >>>>>> and
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> concrete. By setting the battery onto a piece of wood,  that 
> >>>>>>> breaks
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> continuity of the water film and so maintains the charge in the
> >>> battery.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Don
> >>>>>>> On 4/6/2013 2:31 PM, Gordon Laco wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That's good advice.   I once had a shock (pun intended) when I
> >>> casually
> >>>>>>>> touched the probe of a multimeter to the inside skin of my boat
> >>> while the
> >>>>>>>> other probe was touching the SIDE of one of my batteries. 
> >>>>>>>> There
> >>> was a
> >>>>>>>> slight current.    I noticed everything was damp with
> >>>>>>>> condensation.
> >>>  I
> >>>>>>>> dried everything I could reach and was able to kill the stray
> >>> current, at
> >>>>>>>> least so far as my meter could detect.   If ever there was a good
> >>> reason
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-- 
Kris Coward http://unripe.melon.org/
GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733  830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3
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