[Public-List] Stern squat.

Gordon Laco mainstay at csolve.net
Fri Feb 15 05:29:52 PST 2013 

Hello again gang - 

My last email below was what I'd call good advice, and sound reasoning.  Now
I'll tell you what I did with SURPRISE, but keep it to yourselves.

I also noticed the squatting issue, and I didn't like it much. So....

Since our Wednesday night racing is done in Severn Sound, we never really
race in waves.  Therefore, except for dealing with wakes, I don't really
worry about hobby-horsing.  When I upgraded SURPRISE's ground tackle, I
bought a manual windlass and 200' of 5/16" chain.  It and the 25lb CQR
anchor all reside up on the bow and in the forepeak.

When I had SURPRISE painted a few years ago, I had her waterline at her
stern raised about one width of the boot stripe.  (the old top of the stripe
is now the bottom of the new one).

Taken together, these two things have pushed her head down a few degrees,
and moving the waterline boot stripe aft up have hidden a few degrees of
squat - the overall effect is better trim.  I periodically do a fairly
ruthless purge of gear which always seems to accumulate in the cockpit and
stern lockers.  We try to keep them as empty of heavy gear as possible.

We do hobby-horse in a slop going to weather when the air is lightish... But
I just live with it.   On the other hand, I'd noticed with both the Folkboat
and now with the A30, that in a dead calm when motoring, the boat is faster
with the bow trimmed down than otherwise.  We checked this by moving the
whole crew up to the forestay.  I think we sail better in flat water with
the weight forward...but since I don't like tweaking ratings I keep my
conscience clear by only having the chain etc up forward.  I'd feel like I
was cheating if I used dead weight serving no other purpose than trim
ballast.  I think SURPRISE wouldn't really be an A30 anymore if I did the
later.

I never race against A30's here in Georgian Bay, only PHRF against riff-raff
Sharks, and other yachts.  We do well so perhaps I have made good choices
both in the aesthetics and in the performance departments?

What do you think, gang?

Gord SURPRISE 426

On 15/02/13 8:13 AM, "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:

> Good morning friends, hello Jeremy -
> 
> Before doing anything drastic, I'd suggest you do an experiment which I am
> sure will confirm the figures Mike's offered below.
> 
> Get a couple of friends whose weight you can estimate accurately, and ask
> them to stand on the boat while you stand away from her a little.  If you've
> got them standing abeam of the mast, ask them to shuffle forward a couple of
> inches and observe the effect on fore and aft trim (simulating the effect of
> moving the mast)... There won't be much change, in fact you probably won't
> be able to see any.  Stand them on the bow and there will be a noticeable
> change.
> 
> But of course piling weight in the bow will, as has already been written,
> adversely affect the already not so good hobby-horsing characteristic of the
> A30. You probably don't want to add trim weight forward.
> 
> Ask your friends to stand on the stern... Observe the change in trim, then
> ask them to get off the boat; the stern will rise.  Presto - best answer to
> the squatting issue.... Remove weight from the stern.
> 
> What could be better on a winter Friday than discussing our boats?
> 
> Gord SURPRISE 426
> 
> 
> On 15/02/13 7:06 AM, "Meinhold, Michael J." <MICHAEL.J.MEINHOLD at saic.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Jeremy,
>>    I suggest you look at moving the batteries forward if you have room under
>> the cockpit sole.
>> 
>>   The moment to change an Alberg 30's trim by one inch (at the bow or stern)
>> is about 775 ft-lbs.  Moving 100 lbs from the cockpit locker about 10 ft
>> forward is a  moment of 1000 lbs, which should drop the bow by 1000/775 =
>> 1.25
>> inches.
>> 
>>   You can't get much moment out of sliding the mast forward, and you will
>> find
>> a larger effect on sailing performance if you do that.
>> I am not sure of the mast weight - say 300 lb , but your movement is only
>> maybe an inch, so your moment change is maybe 25 ft-lb. dropping the bow only
>> .03 inches.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mike
>> #272
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org
>> [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org] On Behalf Of j_l_brown
>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 12:57 AM
>> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Stern squat.
>> 
>> Cement would be contained, sealed and removable.  No direct contact with hull
>> or woodwork.  I'd prefer another solution, I think moving the mast an inch
>> and
>> a bit forward might help, what is the easiest way to do that?
>> 
>> My irritation with the current trim is not aesthetic, though I think the line
>> is painted a bit off(bottom was stripped, blasted and epoxy coated).
>> 
>>   For now I sleep head first in the v berth or wake up with a headache.
>> 
>> At most I've had: dinghy on deck+35lb car with 50' chain+ danforth on deck,
>> 33lb rocna on bow roller+50' chain into locker, and no cushions, with tools
>> and equipment stacked everywhere.  With a full water tank and holding tank on
>> top of that I was close to level, but I don't want to cruise like that.  
>> 
>> Others don't seem to notice, based on a few people sleeping over,  but it's
>> honestly an issue that is leading me to consider selling if I can't solve it.
>> 
>> Which would be a shame, I've got a better mast, good sails, all new cushions,
>> new hatches, totally new and dc systems, propane system upgraded chainplates
>> etc.  I've put almost 10k into a boat I bought for 13k to start.  She's
>> basically ready to go except for a few final steps, and the squat which is
>> driving me nuts. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Samsung Mobile
>> 
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Glennb <brooks.glenn at comcast.net>
>> Date:  
>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Stern squat.
>>  
>> Hi Jeremy,  
>> 
>> I think many if not  all A30's squat in the stern.  I think its the way they
>> are designed.  Fill up the 20 gal water tank in the bow, add some chain for
>> anchor rode, and what ever crusing gear you want to take along on your
>> sailing
>> trips and the boat levels itself out...no more squat.  Let me be the first to
>> encourage you NOT to pour cement into your boat.  Nothing good ever came of
>> that idea, in either wood or fiberglass hulls, unless you want to burn extra
>> fuel carrying needless weight around or encourage an early demise of your
>> vessel from highly acidic lime content of the cement dissolving the resin in
>> the hull  and contribute to osmotic blistering from water drawn into the hull
>> around the area of the cement.  If the trim really bugs you, a highly valued
>> maintenance tip is to repaint the boot stripe to look level in the water.  i
>> think even Dennis Conner's maintenance chief recommended that once!
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Glenn P.
>> Dolce 318
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Feb 14, 2013, at 8:27 PM, Jeremy Brown <j_l_brown at shaw.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all, 
>>> As I finish up some projects and spend more time actually relaxing on the
>>> boat I'm noticing some things that bug me that I would like to fix soon.
>>> One of the biggest is the squat at the stern.  While I do need to empty the
>>> aft lockers, and currently have nothing up front, it seems to me that it
>>> squats a bit even when totally empty.  One thing I have noticed is that the
>>> mast is slid as far it will go aft on it's bolts.  Could I move it forward?
>>> 
>>> Has anybody added permanent weight up forward?  I have a Yanmar 2GM20F, and
>>> tank under the cockpit sole, as well as the port locker containing my house
>>> battery bank, even with empty lockers she sits a little bit heavy aft.
>>> I'm thinking either poured in place concrete(broken up into smaller sections
>>> with 3/8$ foam, with a hard plastic layer on top of 1/2" closed cell foam to
>>> make it easy to remove if needed, and to protect the hull, or lead(shot in
>>> bags).
>>> 
>>> I'd like to get the bow down a couple inches, it's not the end of the world
>>> if I can't but it does bug me a fair bit.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> _______________________________________________
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