[Public-List] Life lines

Wed Jul 9 17:55:12 PDT 2014

Ahoy,

An interesting thread worthy of a sailing magazine's "old salt" and
"arm-chair" pontificator theories.  The simplest validation is to grab a
lifeline and fall overboard.  Or, clip onto whatever jackline and jump
away.  If one is afraid of damaging the boat, then ....

Personally, I never trust lifelines/stanchions to keep me aboard.  Proper
jacklines are essential when offshore.

My "2 cents"

Dennis
s/v Ferrity

On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Gordon Laco via Public-List <
public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have a confession ... I didn't really use webbing.   I wanted webbing
> but I couldn't be reassured that what I was buying had the UV resistance to
> survive laying on deck all season for years on end.
>
> So I bought a length of red 3/4" polyester double braid, stripped out the
> core... Presto, I had a jack line that would lay flat on the deck  and
> couldn't be confused with anything else.
>
> Gord
> Surprise 426
> (Just back from a wonderful thrash in or Wednesday night race.  Wonderful,
> wonderful.  Wonderful. )
>
>
> On 2014-07-09, at 6:00 PM, Glenn Brooks <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Gord,  what brand of webbing do you use?  Or do you know of a mail order
> supplier that carries it. None of the marine stores around me carry any...
>  So have been using  extra halyards tied for and aft.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Glenn
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On Jul 9, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Gordon Laco via Public-List <
> public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Mike -
> >>
> >> You didn't see my jack lines on SURPRISE due to my being in the middle
> of
> >> replacing them....  We normally have webbing running up port and
> starboard.
> >> The after ends were anchored to life line base bales, up forward they
> went
> >> through the bases of the two bow cleats then back down to the
> corresponding
> >> last stanchion base.  I know I should put pad eyes up forward, that's
> part
> >> of the replacement plan.
> >>
> >> Cheers - Gord
> >> 426 Surprise
> >>
> >>
> >> On 09/07/14 2:55 PM, "Meinhold, Mike J. via Public-List"
> >> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The OSHA standard requires the attachment support 5000 lb force. It
> also says
> >>> the system must not  provide more than 1800 lbs to the falling person
> in a
> >>> harness (900 in a belt).  This is essentially a factor of safety of
> 2.8 - very
> >>> reasonable for man-loads.  1800 lbs decelerates a 200 lb person at 9
> g's -
> >>> still pretty severe.
> >>>
> >>> You can't justify less beefy padeye on a smaller boat, except that you
> have
> >>> shorter trip to the water.
> >>>
> >>> I have Harken padeyes at the forward end of the lifelines that are
> rated at
> >>> above 5000 lbs. While I believe the screws , backing plate and padeye
> would
> >>> carry the load, I am not confident that the deck would support it.
> Could I
> >>> pick the boat up with two of these? I don't think so.
> >>>
> >>> My jack lines are on two bow cleats and two coaming cleats, and I
> believe the
> >>> distribution of force gives me well above 5000 lbs. I am confident
> that if I
> >>> go overboard I will still be attached - I may have broken ribs though.
> Best to
> >>> stay in the boat!
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Lawrence Morris [mailto:morris.lc at verizon.net]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 2:04 PM
> >>> To: Glenn Brooks; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> >>> Cc: Meinhold, Mike J.; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> >>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Life lines
> >>>
> >>> I suspect it is based on OSHA Fall protection regulations that require
> 5klbs
> >>> for attachment points for worker harnesses
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Larry
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>>> On Jul 9, 2014, at 1:51 PM, Glenn Brooks via Public-List
> >>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I think Gordon is saying that one should never trust the lifeline,
> not that
> >>>> they are inherently unsafe.   should some part of the lifeline ,
> stanchion,
> >>>> etc, let go, then whomever is hanging on  at that point is seriously
> >>>> compromised, like my friend John.
> >>>>
> >>>> I do take one exception to the whole safety at sea regulatory thing,
> which
> >>>> perhaps someone on the list  can explain- the 4500 # breaking
> strength for
> >>>> jack lines and attachment points.  Most, if not all the West Coast
> racing
> >>>> rules require 4500 lb breaking strength for clip on points, and the
> webbing
> >>>> and jack lines that attach to one's harness.  Yet, it's hard to
> impossible to
> >>>> find deck eyes etc for small boats (30' ers like the alberg) in this
> size;
> >>>> 2500 -3500# are much more common.  And those 4500 fittings are
> massive and
> >>>> expensive.   More suitable to a 60footer!
> >>>>
> >>>> Anybody know where this requirement came from and if there are actual
> >>>> engineering studies t0 support the requirement?  Or is this just
> another case
> >>>> where a bunch of type A rules committee  Old Salts doubled the old
> >>>> requirement For Safety By Gawd, not realizing their predecessors
> doubled the
> >>>> same requirement 20 years ago?  I would love it, if there is actually
> a
> >>>> reason for the requirement.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> Glenn B
> >>>> dolce 318
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 9, 2014, at 9:26 AM, "Meinhold, Mike J. via Public-List"
> >>>>> <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> George and Mike
> >>>>> Good points on the failure mode analysis - don't want a single point
> of
> >>>>> failure to drown you! It's my favorite position when the boat is
> heeled to
> >>>>> the rail so I will have to look hard at the pelican hooks.
> >>>>> I am not sure about Gord's opinion that the lifelines are not safe
> to lean
> >>>>> on. If they cannot take the static load of my back at 25 degrees of
> heel,
> >>>>> then they can't take the shock load when you grab them in the center
> as you
> >>>>> fall overboard.  If they can't do that then they should not be there
> at all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While the Chesapeake is not the Atlantic, as a frequent single
> hander I know
> >>>>> the chain-of-failure processes that can put you at real risk out
> there, and
> >>>>> respect them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Public-List [mailto:public-list-bounces at lists.alberg30.org]
> On Behalf
> >>>>> Of Mike Lehman via Public-List
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 10:05 AM
> >>>>> To: Gordon Laco; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Life lines
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I too nearly went overboard when the hinge pin on the pelican broke.
> I was
> >>>>> sitting on the low side with the rail in the water when it let
> go...it was
> >>>>> all I could do to stay aboard. I got rid of the pelican hooks after
> that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ~~~_/)_/)~~ Mike Lehman ~~_/)~~~
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Gordon Laco via Public-List
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 9:58 AM
> >>>>> To: Wes Gardner ; Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> >>>>> Cc: George Dinwiddie
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Life lines
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> >>
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