[Public-List] Twings and In-haulers

[Gordon Laco]

Haha, yes, and probably clobber a boat festooned with simplified rigging that actually complicates it… and spoils the practicality of the vessel.  A mantra I have learned in my career as a yacht outfitter is that if people knew how well yachts USED to sail, they wouldn’t be so eager to latch onto shortcuts and go-fast gadgets… 

Please feel free to borrow the ear thing… just make sure you get the arms and ears straight before you say it… not like me.  It’s a lot easier in a meeting when you can do it than write it off the cuff… haha


Gordon Laco
www.gordonlaco.com




> On Apr 21, 2021, at 9:33 PM, Greg Roberts via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
> 
> Don, Gordon,As always, thank you for your input! I am going to play
> with the rings but I do agree that reinstalling the track is a good
> idea. I do have to ask, in good fun... Is it fair to say that both of
> you gentlemen would happily race against one our boats rigged with
> twings, in-hauls, etc?
> A more serious question: My tracks are the original strap of stainless
> bolted down on a strip of 3/8" thick wood. I know of one boat that has
> switched to Delrin for the spacer. Have folks tried any other
> materials with good results? I actually like the stainless since my
> cars are stainless so I don't want to switch to aluminum T track.
> Regards,
> Greg
> P.S. Gordon, I may have borrow that ear bit. I've had to explain to
> way too many clients why the approach they want us to take might not
> be the best way to spend their money...
> On 4/21/2021 at 1:05 PM, public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
> wrote:Send Public-List mailing list submissions to
> public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> public-list-owner at lists.alberg30.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Public-List digest..."
> Please do NOT include the entire digest in your reply!
> ======================================================
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Twings and In-haulers (Gordon Laco)
>   2. Re: Twings and In-haulers (Gordon Laco)
>   3. Re: Twings and In-haulers (Don Campbell) (Greg Roberts)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:20:27 -0400
> From: Gordon Laco 
> To: Don Campbell , Alberg 30 Public List --
> open to all 
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> I used to know a Hungarian fellow who was an engineer? when we were
> discussing rigging issues for the brigantines I operated, sometimes in
> meetings he?d catch my eye across the table, and slowly reach his
> right arm over his head and in a theatrical way scratch his right ear.
> 
> After the meeting at which he first did that, I asked him what it was
> all about.  
> 
> He said (imagine a Hungarian accent)  Gord, the correct manner which
> one should scratch ones right ear is like this (he scratched he right
> ear with his right hand)  Those fellows are trying to do it like this
> (reaches over his head again.)
> 
> Sometimes the traditional way is the best way?particularly with
> rigging.
> Gordon Laco
> 426 Surprise
> www.gordonlaco.com
>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Don Campbell via Public-List  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Greg:
>>   If you change to the rings etc. you will no longer  have a one
> design boat, and knowing what most traditional sailors know about
> sailing, they will find the rings more difficult to sail with than an
> adjustable track car. That system does not allow for easy sail
> adjustment short of either changing ring position if you have a snap
> shackle attachment or rethreading the sheet, for changing wind speeds,
> especially  if you need to either really bag the sail in lighter air
> or really flatten it in heavy air or adjust the car for a spinnaker or
> blooper twinge control line. However, teh controls and sheet placement
> on that class of boat as you describe it makes for a one design class
> as long as no one installs reacks!
>>   If you watched any of the America's Cup, the sail adjustment was
> infinite but by millimeters and all on tracks or the equivalent. You
> cannot do that with the rings. The adjustment is from padeye to
> padeye. Sometimes, newer ideas are not any better than the tried and
> true.
>>   But, there is nothing wrong or bad about dynema for sheets,
> except if your winches wear the lines, then it is expensive.
>>   If you do go to the rings, keep the tracks for the next owner
> because he will probably want them for two reasons: it will still be a
> class one design boat and they are easier to adjust a finer sail set
> quickly, especially for racing.
>> Don
>> 
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Greg Roberts via Public-List" 
>> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>> Cc: "Greg Roberts" 
>> Sent: 2021-04-18 3:21:29 PM
>> Subject: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
>> 
>>> Hi Folks,I crew on a 27' Seascape that doesn't have any tracks. It
>>> uses low friction rings and control lines to set the headsail
> sheeting
>>> angle. I know the concept has been around a long time but seems to
>>> have come back around with the low friction rings and dyneema
> lines.
>>> Has anyone tried this with our boat? I've pulled my toe rail and am
> in
>>> the process of getting ready to replace it. I wouldn't mind not
>>> reinstalling the track. I really like the simplicity of the
>>> components: lines, rings, and padeyes. I still have the original
>>> track, cars, and blocks so this isn't a cost question.
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>> Please support them.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Public-List mailing list
>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> These businesses support your Association:
>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>> Please support them.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Public-List mailing list
>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:25:43 -0400
> From: Gordon Laco 
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> OH NO I GOT THE EARS WRONG?. PLEASE READ CORRECTED VERSON BELOW?
> SORRY!
> Gordon Laco
> www.gordonlaco.com
>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Gordon Laco via Public-List  wrote:
>> 
>> I used to know a Hungarian fellow who was an engineer? when we were
> discussing rigging issues for the brigantines I operated, sometimes in
> meetings he?d catch my eye across the table, and slowly reach his
> right arm over his head and in a theatrical way scratch his LEFT ear.
>> 
>> After the meeting at which he first did that, I asked him what it
> was all about.  
>> 
>> He said (imagine a Hungarian accent)  Gord, the correct manner which
> one should scratch ones right ear is like this (he scratched he right
> ear with his right hand)  Those fellows are trying to do it like this
> (reaches over his head again with the wrong arm.)
>> 
>> Sometimes the traditional way is the best way?particularly with
> rigging.
>> 
>> 
>> Gordon Laco
>> 426 Surprise
>> www.gordonlaco.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Don Campbell via Public-List  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Greg:
>>>  If you change to the rings etc. you will no longer  have a one
> design boat, and knowing what most traditional sailors know about
> sailing, they will find the rings more difficult to sail with than an
> adjustable track car. That system does not allow for easy sail
> adjustment short of either changing ring position if you have a snap
> shackle attachment or rethreading the sheet, for changing wind speeds,
> especially  if you need to either really bag the sail in lighter air
> or really flatten it in heavy air or adjust the car for a spinnaker or
> blooper twinge control line. However, teh controls and sheet placement
> on that class of boat as you describe it makes for a one design class
> as long as no one installs reacks!
>>>  If you watched any of the America's Cup, the sail adjustment was
> infinite but by millimeters and all on tracks or the equivalent. You
> cannot do that with the rings. The adjustment is from padeye to
> padeye. Sometimes, newer ideas are not any better than the tried and
> true.
>>>  But, there is nothing wrong or bad about dynema for sheets,
> except if your winches wear the lines, then it is expensive.
>>>  If you do go to the rings, keep the tracks for the next owner
> because he will probably want them for two reasons: it will still be a
> class one design boat and they are easier to adjust a finer sail set
> quickly, especially for racing.
>>> Don
>>> 
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Greg Roberts via Public-List" 
>>> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>>> Cc: "Greg Roberts" 
>>> Sent: 2021-04-18 3:21:29 PM
>>> Subject: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
>>> 
>>>> Hi Folks,I crew on a 27' Seascape that doesn't have any tracks. It
>>>> uses low friction rings and control lines to set the headsail
> sheeting
>>>> angle. I know the concept has been around a long time but seems to
>>>> have come back around with the low friction rings and dyneema
> lines.
>>>> Has anyone tried this with our boat? I've pulled my toe rail and
> am in
>>>> the process of getting ready to replace it. I wouldn't mind not
>>>> reinstalling the track. I really like the simplicity of the
>>>> components: lines, rings, and padeyes. I still have the original
>>>> track, cars, and blocks so this isn't a cost question.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>> Please support them.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Public-List mailing list
>>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> These businesses support your Association:
>>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>> Please support them.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Public-List mailing list
>>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> These businesses support your Association:
>> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>> Please support them.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Public-List mailing list
>> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:51:44 -0700
> From: "Greg Roberts" 
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers (Don Campbell)
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hi Folks,My email went down about an hour after I posted my question
> about twings and in-haulers. It was the kind of problem that causes
> all messages to wander off into the ether to never be seen again. As
> such I've missed any responses before this afternoon. I believe there
> is an archive but I couldn't find it. Where can I find a link to it?
> Don,Thanks for the thoughtful response. There isn't much of an
> Alberg30 one-design class here in SoCal but it never hurts to have
> options. :) I'll give you that it's a more complex system to adjust
> but it does give you three knobs to turn instead of the traditional
> two. And just to kick ideas around... You have the option of reducing
> it to the traditional system if you use a track car for anchoring the
> twing.
> Regards,
> Greg
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> Please support them.
> _______________________________________________
> Public-List mailing list
> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Public-List Digest, Vol 4157, Issue 1
> ********************************************
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> Please support them.
> _______________________________________________
> Public-List mailing list
> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org