[Public-List] Twings and In-haulers

Don Campbell dk.campbell at xplornet.ca
Wed Apr 21 20:06:00 PDT 2021


The question I always ask is whether Carl Alberg would have rigged this 
boat with ...... rings in this case. Since this boat is an adaptation 
from North Sea sailing, I doubt it,  and I think he would now use self 
tailing winches too. I suggest that he would use a track with a possible 
adjustment block on the ends now that they are commonly available, and 
that makes for safer and easier sail trim in wicked conditions on a day 
with a blow on the North Sea.
     As for racing against a boat rigged with rings,  any day, but those 
days are in the past for me now.
Don

------ Original Message ------
From: "Gordon Laco via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" 
<public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
Cc: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net>; "Greg Roberts" 
<greg at midnight-oil.us>
Sent: 2021-04-21 9:45:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers

>Haha, yes, and probably clobber a boat festooned with simplified rigging that actually complicates it… and spoils the practicality of the vessel.  A mantra I have learned in my career as a yacht outfitter is that if people knew how well yachts USED to sail, they wouldn’t be so eager to latch onto shortcuts and go-fast gadgets…
>
>Please feel free to borrow the ear thing… just make sure you get the arms and ears straight before you say it… not like me.  It’s a lot easier in a meeting when you can do it than write it off the cuff… haha
>
>
>Gordon Laco
>www.gordonlaco.com
>
>
>
>
>>  On Apr 21, 2021, at 9:33 PM, Greg Roberts via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
>>
>>  Don, Gordon,As always, thank you for your input! I am going to play
>>  with the rings but I do agree that reinstalling the track is a good
>>  idea. I do have to ask, in good fun... Is it fair to say that both of
>>  you gentlemen would happily race against one our boats rigged with
>>  twings, in-hauls, etc?
>>  A more serious question: My tracks are the original strap of stainless
>>  bolted down on a strip of 3/8" thick wood. I know of one boat that has
>>  switched to Delrin for the spacer. Have folks tried any other
>>  materials with good results? I actually like the stainless since my
>>  cars are stainless so I don't want to switch to aluminum T track.
>>  Regards,
>>  Greg
>>  P.S. Gordon, I may have borrow that ear bit. I've had to explain to
>>  way too many clients why the approach they want us to take might not
>>  be the best way to spend their money...
>>  On 4/21/2021 at 1:05 PM, public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
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>>  ======================================================
>>  Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Twings and In-haulers (Gordon Laco)
>>    2. Re: Twings and In-haulers (Gordon Laco)
>>    3. Re: Twings and In-haulers (Don Campbell) (Greg Roberts)
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Message: 1
>>  Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:20:27 -0400
>>  From: Gordon Laco
>>  To: Don Campbell , Alberg 30 Public List --
>>  open to all
>>  Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
>>  Message-ID:
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>>  I used to know a Hungarian fellow who was an engineer? when we were
>>  discussing rigging issues for the brigantines I operated, sometimes in
>>  meetings he?d catch my eye across the table, and slowly reach his
>>  right arm over his head and in a theatrical way scratch his right ear.
>>
>>  After the meeting at which he first did that, I asked him what it was
>>  all about.
>>
>>  He said (imagine a Hungarian accent)  Gord, the correct manner which
>>  one should scratch ones right ear is like this (he scratched he right
>>  ear with his right hand)  Those fellows are trying to do it like this
>>  (reaches over his head again.)
>>
>>  Sometimes the traditional way is the best way?particularly with
>>  rigging.
>>  Gordon Laco
>>  426 Surprise
>>www.gordonlaco.com
>>>  On Apr 20, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Don Campbell via Public-List  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Greg:
>>>    If you change to the rings etc. you will no longer  have a one
>>  design boat, and knowing what most traditional sailors know about
>>  sailing, they will find the rings more difficult to sail with than an
>>  adjustable track car. That system does not allow for easy sail
>>  adjustment short of either changing ring position if you have a snap
>>  shackle attachment or rethreading the sheet, for changing wind speeds,
>>  especially  if you need to either really bag the sail in lighter air
>>  or really flatten it in heavy air or adjust the car for a spinnaker or
>>  blooper twinge control line. However, teh controls and sheet placement
>>  on that class of boat as you describe it makes for a one design class
>>  as long as no one installs reacks!
>>>    If you watched any of the America's Cup, the sail adjustment was
>>  infinite but by millimeters and all on tracks or the equivalent. You
>>  cannot do that with the rings. The adjustment is from padeye to
>>  padeye. Sometimes, newer ideas are not any better than the tried and
>>  true.
>>>    But, there is nothing wrong or bad about dynema for sheets,
>>  except if your winches wear the lines, then it is expensive.
>>>    If you do go to the rings, keep the tracks for the next owner
>>  because he will probably want them for two reasons: it will still be a
>>  class one design boat and they are easier to adjust a finer sail set
>>  quickly, especially for racing.
>>>  Don
>>>
>>>  ------ Original Message ------
>>>  From: "Greg Roberts via Public-List"
>>>  To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>>>  Cc: "Greg Roberts"
>>>  Sent: 2021-04-18 3:21:29 PM
>>>  Subject: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
>>>
>>>>  Hi Folks,I crew on a 27' Seascape that doesn't have any tracks. It
>>>>  uses low friction rings and control lines to set the headsail
>>  sheeting
>>>>  angle. I know the concept has been around a long time but seems to
>>>>  have come back around with the low friction rings and dyneema
>>  lines.
>>>>  Has anyone tried this with our boat? I've pulled my toe rail and am
>>  in
>>>>  the process of getting ready to replace it. I wouldn't mind not
>>>>  reinstalling the track. I really like the simplicity of the
>>>>  components: lines, rings, and padeyes. I still have the original
>>>>  track, cars, and blocks so this isn't a cost question.
>>>>  Regards,
>>>>  Greg
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  These businesses support your Association:
>>>>http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>  Please support them.
>>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>>Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  These businesses support your Association:
>>>http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>  Please support them.
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>>>Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>  Message: 2
>>  Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:25:43 -0400
>>  From: Gordon Laco
>>  To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>>  Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
>>  Message-ID:
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>>  OH NO I GOT THE EARS WRONG?. PLEASE READ CORRECTED VERSON BELOW?
>>  SORRY!
>>  Gordon Laco
>>www.gordonlaco.com
>>>  On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Gordon Laco via Public-List  wrote:
>>>
>>>  I used to know a Hungarian fellow who was an engineer? when we were
>>  discussing rigging issues for the brigantines I operated, sometimes in
>>  meetings he?d catch my eye across the table, and slowly reach his
>>  right arm over his head and in a theatrical way scratch his LEFT ear.
>>>
>>>  After the meeting at which he first did that, I asked him what it
>>  was all about.
>>>
>>>  He said (imagine a Hungarian accent)  Gord, the correct manner which
>>  one should scratch ones right ear is like this (he scratched he right
>>  ear with his right hand)  Those fellows are trying to do it like this
>>  (reaches over his head again with the wrong arm.)
>>>
>>>  Sometimes the traditional way is the best way?particularly with
>>  rigging.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Gordon Laco
>>>  426 Surprise
>>>www.gordonlaco.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>  On Apr 20, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Don Campbell via Public-List  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Greg:
>>>>   If you change to the rings etc. you will no longer  have a one
>>  design boat, and knowing what most traditional sailors know about
>>  sailing, they will find the rings more difficult to sail with than an
>>  adjustable track car. That system does not allow for easy sail
>>  adjustment short of either changing ring position if you have a snap
>>  shackle attachment or rethreading the sheet, for changing wind speeds,
>>  especially  if you need to either really bag the sail in lighter air
>>  or really flatten it in heavy air or adjust the car for a spinnaker or
>>  blooper twinge control line. However, teh controls and sheet placement
>>  on that class of boat as you describe it makes for a one design class
>>  as long as no one installs reacks!
>>>>   If you watched any of the America's Cup, the sail adjustment was
>>  infinite but by millimeters and all on tracks or the equivalent. You
>>  cannot do that with the rings. The adjustment is from padeye to
>>  padeye. Sometimes, newer ideas are not any better than the tried and
>>  true.
>>>>   But, there is nothing wrong or bad about dynema for sheets,
>>  except if your winches wear the lines, then it is expensive.
>>>>   If you do go to the rings, keep the tracks for the next owner
>>  because he will probably want them for two reasons: it will still be a
>>  class one design boat and they are easier to adjust a finer sail set
>>  quickly, especially for racing.
>>>>  Don
>>>>
>>>>  ------ Original Message ------
>>>>  From: "Greg Roberts via Public-List"
>>>>  To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>  Cc: "Greg Roberts"
>>>>  Sent: 2021-04-18 3:21:29 PM
>>>>  Subject: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers
>>>>
>>>>>  Hi Folks,I crew on a 27' Seascape that doesn't have any tracks. It
>>>>>  uses low friction rings and control lines to set the headsail
>>  sheeting
>>>>>  angle. I know the concept has been around a long time but seems to
>>>>>  have come back around with the low friction rings and dyneema
>>  lines.
>>>>>  Has anyone tried this with our boat? I've pulled my toe rail and
>>  am in
>>>>>  the process of getting ready to replace it. I wouldn't mind not
>>>>>  reinstalling the track. I really like the simplicity of the
>>>>>  components: lines, rings, and padeyes. I still have the original
>>>>>  track, cars, and blocks so this isn't a cost question.
>>>>>  Regards,
>>>>>  Greg
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>  These businesses support your Association:
>>>>>http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>>  Please support them.
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>  Public-List mailing list
>>>>>Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>>http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  These businesses support your Association:
>>>>http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>>  Please support them.
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  Public-List mailing list
>>>>Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>>http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  These businesses support your Association:
>>>http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
>>>  Please support them.
>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
>>>http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>  Message: 3
>>  Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:51:44 -0700
>>  From: "Greg Roberts"
>>  To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
>>  Subject: Re: [Public-List] Twings and In-haulers (Don Campbell)
>>  Message-ID:
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>>  Hi Folks,My email went down about an hour after I posted my question
>>  about twings and in-haulers. It was the kind of problem that causes
>>  all messages to wander off into the ether to never be seen again. As
>>  such I've missed any responses before this afternoon. I believe there
>>  is an archive but I couldn't find it. Where can I find a link to it?
>>  Don,Thanks for the thoughtful response. There isn't much of an
>>  Alberg30 one-design class here in SoCal but it never hurts to have
>>  options. :) I'll give you that it's a more complex system to adjust
>>  but it does give you three knobs to turn instead of the traditional
>>  two. And just to kick ideas around... You have the option of reducing
>>  it to the traditional system if you use a track car for anchoring the
>>  twing.
>>  Regards,
>>  Greg
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>  Subject: Digest Footer
>>
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>>
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