[Public-List] electric drive

gewhite at crosslink.net gewhite at crosslink.net
Sun Mar 21 15:48:00 PDT 2021


      Electric drive has been used for quite a long time to drive ships.
   The problem of course is getting the electricity. I served in the
   engine room on a Socony-Vacuum tanker in the 1950s running coastwise
   from Beaumont, Texas  to either Paulsboro,  NJ opposite Philadelphia,
   or Tompkinsville Staten Island and occasionally all the way to the
   turning basin at Albany, NY.  It was a 14,000 ton WW II T-2, built in
   1944. It was powered by a large electric motor driven by a steam
   turbine generator with steam made by a fire-tube scotch boiler burning
   heavy bunkers oil. Replaced triple-expansion piston steam engines in
   ships.

       My beef with electric drive in boats or cars is the charging time,
   as well as the scarcity of charging stations. Where I live, 75 miles
   north of Norfolk and 250 miles south of Washington, DC there are very
   few charging stations and those there are take 8 hours to put a full
   charge into a Tesla. As chairman of the county economic development
   authority I have investigated the cost of a fast-charging station to
   attract travelers to our county, but even with a subsidy from Dominion
   Power one would cost upwards of $250,000- and need the cables equal to
   those supplying a small town.

   - Gordon White

   -------- Original Message --------
   Subject: Public-List Digest, Vol 4133, Issue 1
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   Date: Tue, March 16, 2021 11:18 am
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   ======================================================
   Today's Topics:
   1. Re: corroded rudder (Clay Pass)
   2. Re: cutlass housing replacement (Greg Wallis)
   3. Re: Alberg 30 Sail Plan (Mike Meinhold)
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:55:22 -0400
   From: Clay Pass <[7]clay.q.pass at gmail.com>
   To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
   <[8]public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
   Cc: Stephen Gwyn <[9]stephen.gwyn at gmail.com>
   Subject: Re: [Public-List] corroded rudder
   Message-ID:
   <[10]CAKQ=Ps5TvYOb-OcbMJQeGMdp_gCLJ5U6jmt1LGf3_8H3c_CesQ at mail.gmail.com
   >
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
   I think originally that rudder post was supposed to be 3/4" ... mine
   measured 5/8" when I had a new gudgeon made. That's pretty close to
   your
   .6". To me that seemed plenty strong enough. Especially considering
   when
   I got the boat, there was no gudgeon or support there at all. I don't
   know
   how long or in what conditions it had been sailed like that, but I
   don't
   think there is going to be tremendous side load at that point. I have
   #449
   which should be identical to yours and have some pictures of what it
   looked
   like if you are interested.
   Clay Pass
   #449 Seeing Deep
   On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6:03 AM Stephen Gwyn via Public-List <
   [11]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   >
   > Hi,
   >
   > While there is some "meat" left at the middle bearing, when I put
   > my calipers on the shaft, find that 0.6 inches are left, which
   translates
   > to
   > just 36% of the original strength. Not great. And that 0.6 inches was
   > measured
   > on top of the crud; there will be less left after sanding down to
   clean
   > metal.
   > Basically, the approach of just cleaning it up and putting in a
   delrin
   > bushing,
   > while seductively cheap and easy, isn't really a seaworthy solution
   > unless I
   > confine my sailing to quiet weather.
   >
   > I have a 1972 boat, #495. None of the pictures on the website are
   from
   > that era, as far as I can figure out. The older boats also had
   fibreglass
   > tube going up to the cockpit, above the waterline. Mine has a
   stuffing
   > box at the hull.
   >
   > What I'm trying to get from this group is some idea how the later
   > rudders were built, whether it was all one continuous carefully bent
   > shaft, or
   > two parts or...
   >
   > SG
   > _______________________________________________
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   >
   ------------------------------
   Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:02:12 -0400
   From: Greg Wallis <[15]gregwallis at gmail.com>
   To: [16]public-list at lists.alberg30.org
   Subject: Re: [Public-List] cutlass housing replacement
   Message-ID:
   <[17]CALPN44y07mNDdeSZJ5T6AT9PgD1k6hzvKRxPacipvpAQu1mzWQ at mail.gmail.com
   >
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
   Thanks for all your replies and help everybody.
   I ended up carefully smushing some JB-Weld into the threads and then
   using
   a piece of 1 inch NPT threaded pipe from the hardware store to "shape"
   the
   wet JB-Weld. I just screwed and unscrewed the pipe through the gooey
   threads slowly a few times and the stuff held it's shape just fine
   while it
   dried.
   It took 3 very small coats to fill those damaged threads in completely.
   The result looks pretty much perfect and the stern tube threads into it
   just fine.
   I water tested the housing in the sink overnight and it's not leaking.
   So
   I think the problem is solved.
   Thanks again
   Greg
   > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
   > From: Mike Lehman <[18]mlehman at gmail.com>
   > To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
   <[19]public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
   > Cc:
   > Bcc:
   > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:19:59 -0500
   > Subject: Re: [Public-List] cutlass housing replacement
   > To use a technical term...they f'd up.
   >
   > Mike Lehman
   > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 3:41 PM americo silva via Public-List <
   > [20]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   >
   > > Im wondering why they cut into the threads in the first place
   > >
   > > On Thu., Jan. 21, 2021, 11:59 p.m. George Dinwiddie via
   Public-List, <
   > > [21]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > >
   > > > In my experience, it?s easier to seal the threads than the tube
   to the
   > > > hull. I suspect that if the threads weren?t sealed, my boat would
   have
   > > sunk
   > > > before I noticed that the stern tube had rotated since I had
   replaced
   > the
   > > > hose clamps. (The clamp screws were somewhat inaccessible.)
   > > >
   > > > George
   > > >
   > > > Sent from a primitive pocket computer. Please assume all errors
   are due
   > > to
   > > > that.
   > > >
   > > > > On Jan 21, 2021, at 18:47, Clay Pass via Public-List <
   > > > [22]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > > > >
   > > > > I thought in prior discussions we had agreed that water within
   > (inside)
   > > > the
   > > > > stern tube was captured by the stuffing box/packing nut on the
   other
   > > end
   > > > > from entering the boat. Water that leaks through the threads at
   the
   > > > > cutlass housing to the outside of the tube will be stopped from
   > > entering
   > > > > the boat by the complete seal of the stern tube to the hull
   (outside
   > of
   > > > the
   > > > > tube to thru hole in hull) and also the seal of the cutlass
   bearing
   > > > housing
   > > > > to the hull. In any case, I had a housing scored just like this
   and
   > > had
   > > > no
   > > > > issues with it after caulking the whole interface with 3M 4000
   and I
   > > > > believe I caulked the threads with the same just for good
   measure.
   > As
   > > > long
   > > > > as you can screw the housing on the stern tube without it
   turning or
   > > > > breaking the seal and also use plenty of caulk to seal the
   > > > > housing/hull/stern tube interface, you should not have any
   issues. I
   > > > > haven't had any with mine.
   > > > >
   > > > > Clay
   > > > > #449 Seeing Deep
   > > > >
   > > > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 1:36 PM Greg Wallis via Public-List <
   > > > > [23]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > > > >
   > > > >> Hi,
   > > > >>
   > > > >> I am in process of replacing the cutlass bearing,
   > > > >>
   > > > >> Here's a link to my poor cutlass bearing housing. Notice the
   ruined
   > > > pipe
   > > > >> threads.
   > > > >>
   > >
   [24]https://drive.google.com/file/d/198AJ_rMD7Lx8QrdksGXhIbeRR6_FPS9t/v
   iew
   > > > >>
   > > > >> I took the cutlass bearing housing to a shop to have the new
   bearing
   > > > >> pressed in, and they proceeded to overcut the old bearing and
   cut
   > two
   > > > deep
   > > > >> groves lengthwise through the female pipe threads of the
   cutlass
   > > > housing.
   > > > >> These threads connect the cutlass bearing housing to the stern
   tube.
   > > So
   > > > >> now the threads are not going to be watertight. I think that
   the
   > > > threads
   > > > >> will still function, but they will most certainly leak.
   > > > >>
   > > > >> I am hoping somebody has an identical alberg30 cutlass bearing
   > housing
   > > > that
   > > > >> they'd be willing to sell to me. This would be the best.
   > > > >>
   > > > >> If I can't find another one, I am considering to allow this
   fitting
   > to
   > > > leak
   > > > >> between the stern tube and the cutlass bearing housing. I
   think I'd
   > > > just
   > > > >> need to ensure that there is plenty of sealant around the
   outside of
   > > > stern
   > > > >> tube where it exits the hull. I guess some water would
   accumulate
   > in
   > > > that
   > > > >> space and wouldn't really have anywhere to go.
   > > > >>
   > > > >> I would also put a generous layer of sealant on the threads
   > > themselves,
   > > > to
   > > > >> hopefully prevent it from leaking at all. Doing this is going
   to
   > > make
   > > > it
   > > > >> very difficult to remove the cutlass bearing housing in the
   future.
   > > > >>
   > > > >> If you have any suggestions or tricks to make these threads
   > watertight
   > > > >> again, please do let me know. How about a thread sealant that
   would
   > > > solve
   > > > >> this problem and still be possible to unscrew in the future?
   > > > >>
   > > > >> Ideally though, if you have a cutlass bearing housing you'd be
   > willing
   > > > to
   > > > >> part with, please let me know!
   > > > >>
   > > > >> Thanks
   > > > >> Greg
   > > > >> hull #165
   > > > >> _______________________________________________
   > > > >> These businesses support your Association:
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   > > > >> Please support them.
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   > > > >>
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   > > > >>
   > > > > _______________________________________________
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   ------------------------------
   Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:18:33 -0400
   From: Mike Meinhold <[40]meinhold272 at gmail.com>
   To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
   <[41]public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
   Subject: Re: [Public-List] Alberg 30 Sail Plan
   Message-ID:
   <[42]CAOvfohc-oLomSeFiE1av8adboQHroa2q84gfAdc6RuUtsXdfQw at mail.gmail.com
   >
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
   Diesel electric is a good technology for ships when it serves the
   arrangements well. If you are forced into compromises such as a very
   long
   shaft, or increasing section beam aft to accommodate an engine, then it
   can
   pay off. It works well for vessels that use as much electricity for
   house
   or for weapons as for propulsion. In these cases physically separating
   the
   energy conversion from the propulsion motor can work well. In an A30 ,
   you
   simply add weight and complexity to go diesel-electric, unless you
   significantly reduce the requirements for speed and range. The gains in
   propulsive efficiency will be small - we already have a good match with
   small diesel and gas engines - so for matching peformance, your diesel
   generator will have to generate 16 or so horsepower, and you will need
   a 16
   hp motor. You could use a smaller engine combined with batteries , and
   run
   it longer , but that will get heavy quickly.
   For those willing to limit their A30 to daysailing or short cruises,
   and
   who have power at the pier to recharge, all-electric might work,
   replacing
   the fuel storage. Let's say I want a minimum 3 hours of 6 knot steaming
   in
   my batteries. That's 3 hours at 12 kw, 36 kw-hours. at 12 volts that's
   3000
   amp-hours, or quantity 30 12V, 100 amp-hour batteries. A 16 hp (12 kw)
   electric motor is smaller and lighter than a 16 hp diesel, gaining you
   say
   4 or 5 100 amp-hour batteries - maybe more if you can be
   weight-efficient.
   You could replace that energy nightly , but would need a fairly
   sophisticated charging system to deliver 36kw - hour in say 12 hours,
   so
   3000 watts. At 120 V that's 25 amps, just below a 30 amp dock
   connection.
   At a mooring the required solar panels are going to be very heavy and
   large.
   A quick look at solar panels finds 320 watts peak in a 1.7m x 1 m
   panel. Lets say I can fit 3 of those somehow, getting 1.6 kw peak.
   Assuming about 5 peak hours ( residential panel sizing uses numbers
   like
   this) we get 8 kw-hours/ day so need 2 days to fill the batteries back
   up,
   allowing me to daysail every 3rd day.
   Of course others can have a different use case, but I consider a diesel
   or
   gas engine integral with the A30 design. If I had a customer who wanted
   a
   diesel-electric or an all-electric 30 foot sailboat, I could help
   design
   it, but it would not be an A30.
   Mike
   Rinn Duin #272
   On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:54 Gordon Laco via Public-List <
   [43]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > I reckon the limiting factor to making electric practical for cars or
   > boats is battery performance. Technology has a way to go yet.
   >
   > I was reading the other day about the ?green? aspect of engines? the
   > writer was making the case that electric, particularly electric using
   > lithium batteries, pushes pollution out of our sight but loads it on
   the
   > third world.
   >
   > The writer made the case that so far the ?greenest? engine is a well
   tuned
   > diesel. Non-complex metals in its construction (mostly just iron), no
   > reliance on solar or shore based electrical generation which has it?s
   own
   > particular polluting issues more complicated than the soot and CO
   from the
   > diesel?s exhaust?
   >
   > Sounds like heresy I know?
   >
   > Many large commercial vessels use well proven diesel-electric
   propulsion.
   > A smaller diesel than would be required if it drove the prop directly
   runs
   > at optimum speed for fuel economy and emission reduction, spinning a
   gen
   > set that in turn powers electric propulsion. I have wondered
   sometimes
   > that yachts don?t use that system?
   >
   > Gordon Laco
   > 426 Surprise
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > > On Mar 11, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Mike Lehman via Public-List <
   > [44]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > >
   > > I know of one Alberg 30 with an electric motor. To get any range it
   > needs 2
   > > sets of batteries...600 lbs each...yields about 2-3 hours of
   motoring
   > >
   > > Mike Lehman
   > > ~~~_/)_/)~~_/)~~~
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 9:59 AM Gordon Laco via Public-List <
   > > [45]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > >
   > >> Hello Dave, good morning, welcome aboard.
   > >>
   > >> There?s so much below that needs unpacking I?m not sure where to
   > begin. I
   > >> don?t mean that unkindly, so please don?t take it that way..
   > >>
   > >> So jumping to the ballast references? it is utterly and completely
   > >> impossible to remove the ballast without embarking on a large and
   > technical
   > >> and very expensive engineering project. I suppose it would be
   possible
   > to
   > >> remove the deck, remove the interior, chisel out the glass work
   holding
   > the
   > >> encapsulated ballast in place, drill lifting bolt holes into the
   iron,
   > >> thread lifting rings into the holes, then arrange a gantry or
   crane to
   > >> perform the lift?. while having found a way to hold the shell of
   the
   > hull
   > >> down while upwards force was applied to the ballast pig? huge
   force
   > much in
   > >> excess of the weight of the iron to break it loose from the skin
   of the
   > >> keel.
   > >>
   > >> Alternative to all that, one might saw off the ballast area of the
   keel
   > >> from the outside, then build a new keel?
   > >>
   > >> Regardless, in order to come even remotely close to the density of
   the
   > >> iron the yachts were built with by stacking batteries as ballast,
   would
   > >> require a much larger volume of space than is currently occupied
   by the
   > >> iron. Ball parking the amount of space in a battery that is NOT
   > lead?I?d
   > >> venture that you might need four or five times the volume. But?
   that
   > >> volume is extra displacement (floating ?energy?), so just to sink
   it
   > you?d
   > >> need even more batteries? where would you put them? And so the
   > impossible
   > >> circle would go?
   > >>
   > >> So, the short answer is? it is not practical to remove the
   ballast,
   > >> particularly with the intention to replace the ballast with
   batteries.
   > >>
   > >>
   > >> Gordon Laco
   > >> [46]www.gordonlaco.com
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:24 PM, Dave Yamakuchi via Public-List <
   > >> [47]public-list at lists.alberg30.org> wrote:
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>> Hi everyone, I'm Dave, skipper of Aquila, Hull #47 (1964/65.)
   Work &
   > >> sail in Chicago, mooring can at the mouth of Burnham Harbor.
   > >>>
   > >>> I had a few questions, but first, some background: 'Aquila'
   doesn't
   > have
   > >> an Atomic 4, she has a Graymarine. It needs a bunch of stuff. And
   it's
   > >> 400+lbs, _without_ the exhaust pipe. The cockpit sits, I suspect,
   a bit
   > >> closer to the water than it should be maybe, if you catch my
   drift.
   > Giant
   > >> saddlebag lazerette gas tanks probably don't help.
   > >>>
   > >>> So, I'm tearing that gak out. I'm going electric. With lots of
   lead
   > >> batteries.
   > >>>
   > >>> Anyway, the mast isn't moving. But I'm definitely 'moving'
   significant
   > >> weight forward from the aft. Will she still sail right? I'm
   considering
   > >> allocating a few hundred pounds of batteries or so to the motor's
   former
   > >> location just to try and not wreck the fore/aft balance too badly,
   > though
   > >> I'm going in resigned to the fact that it's going to happen
   anyway.
   > >> amidoinitrite? I'm the electrical guy, not the sailor. Certainly
   never
   > >> been a shipwright. You all tell me. Please. The original batteries
   were
   > >> under the cabin floor, so right now Plan A is shoehorning as many
   more
   > >> pounds of 12V lead as is practical in there, plus whatever extras
   in the
   > >> engine compartment.
   > >>>
   > >>> I'm wondering though: has anyone here ever accessed or removed
   their
   > A30
   > >> keel ballast? What shape / size is it? Is it tapered? Will it come
   out
   > >> the companionway with a crane maybe? Is this crazy talk? IDK. I'm
   > >> basically getting a crane to help pull the motor anyway. 3300lbs
   of
   > lead
   > >> batteries is rather a lot of power too. It would be a stretch, but
   I
   > could
   > >> probably swing it.
   > >>>
   > >>> She's my first boat. I figured I'd ask some experts during the
   planning
   > >> phase...
   > >>> Here's what I know:
   > >>>
   > >>> * The 70lb 12V type 31s claim about 80 AmpHours or '195 minutes
   at 25A'
   > >> which equals maybe 1/3hp for 3hours or so, conservatively.
   > >>>
   > >>> * Three of those gets 1hp, six of them does 2hp, etc. For that
   same
   > >> duration. Use less hp than that, get longer runtime, obviously.
   > >>>
   > >>> * Replacing the displacement of a 419lb motor and transmission
   gets
   > >> about six times 70lbs.
   > >>>
   > >>> * Plus two batteries 'existing' is eight.
   > >>>
   > >>> * The ballast is 3300lbs.
   > >>>
   > >>> * 47 x 70 lb batteries is 3,290lbs. 48 batteries x 25A per
   battery x
   > >> 12V is 14.4kW. 19hp.
   > >>> * This leads to propeller questions, however, perhaps you get the
   idea.
   > >>> * I want to replace the iron ballast with lead.
   > >>>
   > >>> Why won't this work?
   > >>>
   > >>> How could it?
   > >>>
   > >>> What's the best place for those batteries?
   > >>>
   > >>> Can I get the batteries into the keel like I want?
   > >>>
   > >>> Opinions please.
   > >>>
   > >>> Thanks in advance and best regards.
   > >>> Dave
   > >>> _______________________________________________
   > >>> Public-List mailing list
   > >>> [48]Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
   > >>>
   [49]http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
   > >>>
   > >>> _______________________________________________
   > >>> These businesses support your Association:
   > >>> [50]http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
   > >>> Please support them.
   > >>> _______________________________________________
   > >>> Public-List mailing list
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   > >>>
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   > >>
   > >> _______________________________________________
   > >> These businesses support your Association:
   > >> [53]http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
   > >> Please support them.
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   > [59]http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
   > Please support them.
   > _______________________________________________
   > Public-List mailing list
   > [60]Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
   > [61]http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
   >
   ------------------------------
   Subject: Digest Footer
   _______________________________________________
   These businesses support your Association:
   [62]http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
   Please support them.
   _______________________________________________
   Public-List mailing list
   [63]Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
   [64]http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
   ------------------------------
   End of Public-List Digest, Vol 4133, Issue 1
   ********************************************

References

   1. mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
   2. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
   3. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
   4. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
   5. mailto:public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org
   6. mailto:public-list-owner at lists.alberg30.org
   7. mailto:clay.q.pass at gmail.com
   8. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
   9. mailto:stephen.gwyn at gmail.com
  10. mailto:CAKQ=Ps5TvYOb-OcbMJQeGMdp_gCLJ5U6jmt1LGf3_8H3c_CesQ at mail.gmail.com
  11. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  12. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  13. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  14. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  15. mailto:gregwallis at gmail.com
  16. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  17. mailto:CALPN44y07mNDdeSZJ5T6AT9PgD1k6hzvKRxPacipvpAQu1mzWQ at mail.gmail.com
  18. mailto:mlehman at gmail.com
  19. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  20. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  21. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  22. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  23. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  24. https://drive.google.com/file/d/198AJ_rMD7Lx8QrdksGXhIbeRR6_FPS9t/view
  25. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  26. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  27. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  28. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  29. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  30. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  31. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  32. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  33. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  34. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  35. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  36. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  37. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  38. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  39. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  40. mailto:meinhold272 at gmail.com
  41. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  42. mailto:CAOvfohc-oLomSeFiE1av8adboQHroa2q84gfAdc6RuUtsXdfQw at mail.gmail.com
  43. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  44. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  45. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  46. http://www.gordonlaco.com/
  47. mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org
  48. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  49. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  50. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  51. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  52. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  53. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  54. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  55. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  56. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  57. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  58. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  59. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  60. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  61. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
  62. http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
  63. mailto:Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
  64. http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org


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