[Public-List] Charts and depth sounding

Sat Feb 19 07:40:23 PST 2022

I think I’ve told this anecdote before… but here goes anyway.

The first time I was on the bridge of a warship as a newly minted Acting Sub Lieutenant fresh out of BOTC (the RCN’s Basic Officer’s Training Course, people in it called ‘Botchies’)  I saw no paper charts on the bridge, only a radar-interfaced GPS system.   Coming from the Sail Training world where I’d held a Master’s ticket, I felt superior and commented ‘you guys trust your LIVES to THAT?!’

My colleagues looked at me sadly.  Then I had to laugh… I said ‘I’ll bet 1,000 years ago someone looked at a magnetic compass and said ‘you guys trust your LIVES to That?!’

Haha, onwards.   Looks like Ellesmere Island outside here in Midland just now… but of course if the weather were like this in March or April, well then I suppose I’d have something to complain about...

Gordon Laco
426 Surprise

> On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:33 AM, Michael <dickdurk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I did not catch the incorrect term. I meant edition where i said addition. Editions are numbered in order on bottom left of paper charts. As far as i know, editions are the only way to know if the chart is current (there is also a date that shows when that particular chart was corrected to).
> The whole system is kerfloovered IMHO with the combination of print-on-demand, NOAA not really printing anymore ( I know for sure they are no longer doing tide and currents and coast pilots), and loosening regulations as far as paper charts on board. Previously only Navy, Coast Guard, and commercial vessels equipped with ECDIS (I don't know what it stands for, but it is a specific electronic Nav. package) were allowed to radically reduce paper charts on board, using chart plotters. Commercial regulations were really supporting the printing office. That has recently changed, I think.
> There can be a huge argument whether that is good or bad, but, to again take the Chesapeake Bay as an example-if your run is primarily from Cape Charles to say Baltimore, 2 paper charts as backup will do it. A chart resolution that shows every crab shanty on Tangier Island is just overkill. Even that chart-Tangier Sound-with a new edition, would not reflect all new soundings.
> Anyway, I am surprised to hear the Canadian system is different. This U.S. Government system seems logical-and it pains me greatly to recognize that. Even a blind squirrel finds an occasional nut.
> michael
> #220
> 
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net <mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>>
> To: "Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>
> Cc: "Michael" <dickdurk at gmail.com <mailto:dickdurk at gmail.com>>; "Rod Symmes" <weatherhelm at hotmail.com <mailto:weatherhelm at hotmail.com>>
> Sent: 2/19/2022 9:21:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Charts and depth sounding
> 
>> Good morning Rod… yes, that may be at issue here.  A reprint is not, in my terminology, a new chart.  A new chart is the result of a new survey… the CHS does them constantly.
>> 
>> I have no knowledge of how such things are handled in the States.
>> 
>>  Thanks for the help.
>> 
>> Meanwhile, it was blowing the dog off the chain (so to speak) here a few hours ago, but now looking out the window I see a peaceful winter morning.  I think I’ll go and see if SURPRISE still has her tarp in place.
>> 
>> 
>> Gordon Laco
>> 426 Surprise
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 19, 2022, at 9:15 AM, Rod Symmes via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think this may be a good example of the importance of definition......
>>> 
>>> I suspect that Gord is talking about issuing a "new" chart which contains new survey data and Michael is talking about getting a fresh copy of the old chart.
>>> 
>>> I may be mistaken.....
>>> Isn't language interesting 🤔
>>> 
>>> Rod
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Michael via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>
>>> Date: 2022-02-19 7:29 a.m. (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>
>>> Cc: Michael <dickdurk at gmail.com <mailto:dickdurk at gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Charts and depth sounding
>>> 
>>> I don't think that is completely accurate Gordon. I don't know exactly
>>> what triggers issuance of new charts, but it is not a survey of the
>>> entire area covered by that chart.
>>> I was on a boat that received automatic corrections and editions of
>>> charts in our library (I think there were 113), oddly enough, a service
>>> provided by a company more or less in my hometown (Easton, MD.).
>>>  Mouth of Chesapeake Bay was especially susceptible to new additions. It
>>> was also being continuously corrected. My theory is that was because of
>>> the large presence of USCG-the training facilities at Yorktown and the
>>> large base at Portsmouth. I think what happens is; these guys go on a
>>> cruise, they notice a marker they believe is out of position, that
>>> generates a correction. Then, a couple weeks later, another team goes
>>> out, notices the marker just corrected is not in the corrected spot,
>>> which generates another correction. Eventually the stickers pile up so
>>> thick on the chart it no longer folds. That is when you get a new
>>> addition. It was the Mate's job to do the cut and paste on all the
>>> charts, he was quite busy at times, especially if it was a month or two
>>> getting to our supply bin. It was always nice to get a new addition, old
>>> charts make great crab paper.
>>> Surveys are sometimes included in the corrections, but they are always
>>> the dredged shipping channels.
>>> Michael Grosh
>>> #220
>>> Also formerly of Tug Oyster Creek
>>> 
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Gordon Laco via Public-List" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>
>>> To: "R Kirk" <isobar at verizon.net <mailto:isobar at verizon.net>>
>>> Cc: "Gordon Laco" <mainstay at csolve.net <mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>>;
>>> "public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>" <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>;
>>> "public-list at alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at alberg30.org>" <public-list at alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at alberg30.org>>;
>>> "a30240 at earthlink.net <mailto:a30240 at earthlink.net>" <a30240 at earthlink.net <mailto:a30240 at earthlink.net>>
>>> Sent: 2/18/2022 10:20:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Charts and depth sounding
>>> 
>>>> Hello - I reckon the CHS would offer a different view on that.   New charts are new charts resulting from fresh survey and soundings…
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>> www.gordonlaco.com <http://www.gordonlaco.com/><http://www.gordonlaco.com <http://www.gordonlaco.com/>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 18, 2022, at 10:06 PM, R Kirk <isobar at verizon.net <mailto:isobar at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Don't count on fresh surveys.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The USA is similar with frequent chart updates. But the very frequent Weekly Notice to Mariners*   invariably just shows buoy shuffling. Even the chart reissues which are done after several years are merely reprints to replace the previous heavily pen & inked corrected versions before they become illegible. In no cases are the soundings changed from the last century's work - unless you're lucky. The few NOAA survey ships which are left service the Navy & commercial shipping interests. Local surveys that interest we sailors are contracted out, as budget permits. I'm guessing Canada is similar.
>>>>> 
>>>>> *My earliest recollections were of my father getting the weekly notices in the mail. He called it the "Boat sunk notice" because it reported the location of ships sunk by German subs off the south shore of Long Island early WW2.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Gordon Laco via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>
>>>>> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>
>>>>> Cc: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net <mailto:mainstay at csolve.net>>; a30240 at earthlink.net <mailto:a30240 at earthlink.net>; A30 Public List <public-list at alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at alberg30.org>>
>>>>> Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2022 8:13 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Charts and depth sounding
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Jim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Canadian Hydrographic Service continually re-surveys and updates charts through ’Notices to Mariners’.  This was once distributed by mail, more lately it has been available online, updated even more regularly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gordon Laco
>>>>> www.gordonlaco.com <http://www.gordonlaco.com/><http://www.gordonlaco.com <http://www.gordonlaco.com/>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 18, 2022, at 8:10 PM, a30240--- via Public-List <public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org> <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org <mailto:public-list at lists.alberg30.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gordon wrote
>>>>>> "My own opinion is that a depth sounder without a navigation chart is useless. The depth reading can be correlated with charted depths to help determine position? and THAT is what lowers the chances of going aground. Probably the most useful application of a depth sounder is when dropping the hook and determining how much anchor chain or rope needs to be let go.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Two months till sailing? wahoo?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It might be worth noting that most charts, at least in the US for areas primarily used by small craft haven't been surveyed in a long time. While this isn't a major issue in places with hard bottoms, shallow water areas in the Chesapeake and along the US east coast haven't been surveyed in the lifetime of most skippers.
>>>>>> Also just because you have the newest chart plotter doesn't make it more accurate than the government charts the data is drawn from
>>>>>> Granted there is some updating when an individual or agency reports a change: dredged channel, bridge, marina, buoy location, etc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jim Davis
>>>>>> Prairie Schooner
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup
>>>>>> 
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