[Public-List] Public-List Digest, Vol 2703, Issue 3

[Mark Smith]

I no longer have need to be on this list. Please remove me.  Thank you.


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 1:48 PM, <public-list-request at lists.alberg30.org>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Exterior wood finish? (Glenn)
>    2. Re: Exterior wood finish? (Gordon Laco)
>    3. Re: Exterior wood finish? (Jim Davis)
>    4. Re: Exterior wood finish? (Gordon Laco)
>    5. Liferaft Storage (gregr at nethere.com)
>    6. Re: Liferaft Storage (Gordon Laco)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 18:24:52 +0400
> From: Glenn <brooks.glenn at comcast.net>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>         <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Exterior wood finish?
> Message-ID: <2E6B295F-F81C-4BF6-A7A6-7620805815CC at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> Thanks Gord,
>
> Good to know.  I did just as you described- sealed the coaming boards with
> thined varnish, two coats I think. Then six coats full strength. Last
> couple of years i've also tried putting down two coats of dejks oil as a
> sealer, before the varnish.  Not sure if that is better or not so good
> yet...
>
>  I thought about sealing with epoxy, but didnt because of the inevitable
> stripping that will come sooner than latter in the PNW. Never had more than
> three years varnish life because of the miserable neverending wet. (my
> solution is take the boat to Hawaii someday, maybe next spring and never
> come back, muahhahahaah!).
>
> Cheers
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:38 PM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:
>
> > Hello Glenn
> >
> > Epoxy is a great way to seal wood; but it will complicate the inevitable
> stripping job you'll eventually have to face.
> >
> > I epoxied a mast once reasoning that the soft spruce would benefit from
> being hardened    I wanted to make my varnish job more proof against dings
> made by shackles etc that would let in water and make black spots in the
> wood.  Many years later when I was stripping that mast I wasn't happy about
> having to cope with the epoxy.
> >
> > The best way to seal wood from water intrusion is by means of heavily
> thinned varnish.    Thinned 50/50 with solvent, it will be as thin as water
> and really get into the wood.  It's a terrific wood sealer.
> >
> > And about the coamings... I agree, there should be no reason to cut
> bolts...if the heads are plugged (mine aren't) just pick out the plugs with
> an awl and spin them out    You will need to hold the nut on the inside of
> course.
> >
> > Gord #426 Surprise
> >
> > On 2013-11-25, at 8:12 AM, Glenn <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Gord,  very interesting. I did not know about the no-sand weakness, so
> will put a couple of coats on next year when I get back to the US to
> protect last springs investment.
> >>
> >> In areas with a lot or rain, Pacific Northwest and Alaska for example,
> the biggest threat to varnish is water seeping around the edges of poorly
> fitted wooden plugs, or any little exposed edge of trim.  Like you said,
> once the wood gets wet along an edge, or split, it peels the varnish along
> the fault line and grows and grows.
> >>
> >> Ive heard several local people say they coat all bare sanded trim with
> two thin coats of epoxy, then varnish over.  any thoughts on this?
> >>
> >> Shukra!
> >>
> >> Glenn
> >> Dolce 318
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >> On Nov 25, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello friends
> >>>
> >>> Good marine varnish applied to the specified number of coats has the
> best UV resistance.  Some products will offer convenience with regard, for
> example, to not having to be sanded between coats, but this is always at
> the cost of UV resistance.
> >>>
> >>> professional varnishers may often use a 'no sand' product for build
> coats, but will complete jobs with one or two coats of regular varnish to
> boost UV protection.
> >>>
> >>> When I do varnish seminars people always ask me what goes wrong with
> most varnish jobs; the answer is simple.   Everyone knows that when
> starting a job from bare wood, one needs to get the recommended thickness
> ... But the trouble is this... after three coats or so, the wood starts
> looking good, so they stop.    It's not the varnish's fault if the
> application is too thinly.
> >>>
> >>> Similarly, one needs to protect 'no-sand' finishes with regular
> varnish and have the combination thick enough.
> >>>
> >>> Six coats of 'no-sand' with two of regular varnish on top will look as
> good as any professional job... Yes it's a lot to do the first year... But
> if one applies one or two light coats every spring following that big first
> season, the finish should last more than ten years.  (Even on teak)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 09:39:33 -0500
> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>         <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Exterior wood finish?
> Message-ID: <CEB8CB55.152B4%mainstay at csolve.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Hello Glenn - I'd like to take SURPRISE to Hawaii some day too - maybe if I
> rationalize that it's for the sake of my woodwork that'll be the tipping
> point to make it happen....
>
> Eight coats of varnish is a good finish.  I know to folks reading this who
> haven't done it before it sounds like a lot but if one does it, one doesn't
> have to do it again.
>
> My own routine has been to do the initial thinned coats with regular
> varnish...then do one coat a day of the no-sand stuff each day for a week.
> Then I go back to real varnish for the last two in order to make sure I've
> got protection from the sun.
>
> In varnishing, it's the sanding followed by the de-dusting between coats
> that takes the time and hard work.  Using the no-sand stuff cuts 90% of the
> labour out of the work of building up the protective coats.
>
> Surprise's toe rails don't look so good now because the bedding on them
> failed (again) and water compromised my varnish job.  I really should
> remove
> them; do the proper rebedding job, then lay them on again after getting 2
> coats of varnish on them.  I would then do the regular build up once the
> plugs are back over the screw and bolt heads.  Maybe I'll do that next year
> (but more likely I'll try to bed the edges of them because I'm lazy and in
> the spring want to get sailing....)
>
> Gord #426 Surprise
>
>
> On 25/11/13 9:24 AM, "Glenn" <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Gord,
> >
> > Good to know.  I did just as you described- sealed the coaming boards
> with
> > thined varnish, two coats I think. Then six coats full strength. Last
> couple
> > of years i've also tried putting down two coats of dejks oil as a sealer,
> > before the varnish.  Not sure if that is better or not so good yet...
> >
> >  I thought about sealing with epoxy, but didnt because of the inevitable
> > stripping that will come sooner than latter in the PNW. Never had more
> than
> > three years varnish life because of the miserable neverending wet. (my
> > solution is take the boat to Hawaii someday, maybe next spring and never
> come
> > back, muahhahahaah!).
> >
> > Cheers
> > Glenn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:38 PM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Glenn
> >>
> >> Epoxy is a great way to seal wood; but it will complicate the inevitable
> >> stripping job you'll eventually have to face.
> >>
> >> I epoxied a mast once reasoning that the soft spruce would benefit from
> being
> >> hardened    I wanted to make my varnish job more proof against dings
> made by
> >> shackles etc that would let in water and make black spots in the wood.
>  Many
> >> years later when I was stripping that mast I wasn't happy about having
> to
> >> cope with the epoxy.
> >>
> >> The best way to seal wood from water intrusion is by means of heavily
> thinned
> >> varnish.    Thinned 50/50 with solvent, it will be as thin as water and
> >> really get into the wood.  It's a terrific wood sealer.
> >>
> >> And about the coamings... I agree, there should be no reason to cut
> >> bolts...if the heads are plugged (mine aren't) just pick out the plugs
> with
> >> an awl and spin them out    You will need to hold the nut on the inside
> of
> >> course.
> >>
> >> Gord #426 Surprise
> >>
> >> On 2013-11-25, at 8:12 AM, Glenn <brooks.glenn at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gord,  very interesting. I did not know about the no-sand weakness, so
> will
> >>> put a couple of coats on next year when I get back to the US to
> protect last
> >>> springs investment.
> >>>
> >>> In areas with a lot or rain, Pacific Northwest and Alaska for example,
> the
> >>> biggest threat to varnish is water seeping around the edges of poorly
> fitted
> >>> wooden plugs, or any little exposed edge of trim.  Like you said, once
> the
> >>> wood gets wet along an edge, or split, it peels the varnish along the
> fault
> >>> line and grows and grows.
> >>>
> >>> Ive heard several local people say they coat all bare sanded trim with
> two
> >>> thin coats of epoxy, then varnish over.  any thoughts on this?
> >>>
> >>> Shukra!
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> Dolce 318
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 25, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello friends
> >>>>
> >>>> Good marine varnish applied to the specified number of coats has the
> best
> >>>> UV resistance.  Some products will offer convenience with regard, for
> >>>> example, to not having to be sanded between coats, but this is always
> at
> >>>> the cost of UV resistance.
> >>>>
> >>>> professional varnishers may often use a 'no sand' product for build
> coats,
> >>>> but will complete jobs with one or two coats of regular varnish to
> boost UV
> >>>> protection.
> >>>>
> >>>> When I do varnish seminars people always ask me what goes wrong with
> most
> >>>> varnish jobs; the answer is simple.   Everyone knows that when
> starting a
> >>>> job from bare wood, one needs to get the recommended thickness ...
> But the
> >>>> trouble is this... after three coats or so, the wood starts looking
> good,
> >>>> so they stop.    It's not the varnish's fault if the application is
> too
> >>>> thinly.
> >>>>
> >>>> Similarly, one needs to protect 'no-sand' finishes with regular
> varnish and
> >>>> have the combination thick enough.
> >>>>
> >>>> Six coats of 'no-sand' with two of regular varnish on top will look
> as good
> >>>> as any professional job... Yes it's a lot to do the first year... But
> if
> >>>> one applies one or two light coats every spring following that big
> first
> >>>> season, the finish should last more than ten years.  (Even on teak)
> > _______________________________________________
> > These businesses support your Association:
> > http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> > Please support them.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-List mailing list
> > Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> > http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:12:24 -0500 (EST)
> From: Jim Davis <a30240 at earthlink.net>
> To: A30 <public-list at alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Exterior wood finish?
> Message-ID:
>         <
> 13427809.1385395945024.JavaMail.root at mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Gord wrote  "The best way to seal wood from water intrusion is by means of
> heavily thinned varnish.    Thinned 50/50 with solvent, it will be as thin
> as water and really get into the wood.  It's a terrific wood sealer."
>
> This is the same technique I have used for a long time.  I sand with 120
> just before varnishing bare teak and wipe it down with either alcohol or
> acetone.  I start with 50/50 spar varnish and mineral spirits and simply
> brush it on.  I try for two (three) coats a day without sanding between
> coats.  If the surface is soft, or tacky you can apply wet on wet.  Once
> the surface has started to gloss then let it dry well and sand with ~180,
> dust and tack cloth.   For building up the coats use either Epifanes Wood
> Finish or a good spar varnish.  With the Epifanes you don't need to sand
> between coats, but do need to top coat with a real varnish.  This produces
> a finish that last as long as you recoat it in the spring and fall.  Where
> I have a failure do to water intrusion, or dinging it, I sand or scrape the
> affected area and build it up the same way.
>
> Just a side thought.  Personally I don't like the modern marine varnishes.
>  They are too thin.  I try to use the old fashioned McCloskey Man O War
> Spar Varnish. It is an old high resin finish that is much thicker than the
> newfangled stuff.
>
>
> Jim Davis
> Privateer Isa Lei
>
> If man does find the solution for world peace it will be the most
> revolutionary reversal of his record we have ever known.
>
> George C. Marshall
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:44:04 -0500
> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
> To: Jim Davis <a30240 at earthlink.net>,   Alberg 30 Public List -- open to
>         all <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Exterior wood finish?
> Message-ID: <CEB8E884.152CC%mainstay at csolve.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Thanks Jim.
>
> And you've driven me out of cover.  The marine finish information I've
> given
> has been impartial.... But since you've mentioned Epifanes, I'll spill the
> beans that I am the Canadian distributor for that company.  The information
> I've offered is good for any varnish, whoever makes it.
>
> Epifanes 'Wood Finish' in gloss is pretty good in the sun; but it's best to
> cover it with regular varnish (we think ours is pretty good) to boost the
> UV
> resistance.
>
> An interesting dynamic in varnishes is that matt or flat finishes don't
> stand up so well in the sun as gloss, and this goes for whoever the
> manufacturer is.   It's recommended that if you want a matt finish in an
> exterior situation, you varnish normally then do the last coat with a matt
> varnish.  I do that with my cockpit seat wood inlays.  Our 'Clear Varnish'
> (aren't those Dutch clever with product names?) is very glossy and very
> good
> against UV, but it's slippery.  Matt isn't so slippery so we do the last
> coat with that.
>
> Our CV ('Clear Varnish') is old fashioned oil based varnish too.  It's also
> relatively thick right out of the can, which most people like a lot and a
> few others don't.    Professionals I deal with like the thickness because
> when you're doing the last coats you really get a last coat.... And you've
> got a wider scale of thickness to thin down to when you want it thinner.
>
> I was just talking with a client on the phone who does wood refinishing for
> historic sites.   For him, the time involved doing a good varnish job has a
> huge bearing on how profitably he can complete contracts.  He uses our
> 'Rapid Coat Clear' varnish for his build coats because he can lay on two or
> three coats per day due to it's fast curing and no-sanding
> characteristics... He'll do his last coats with regular real varnish to
> make
> sure the job lasts and his client stays happy.
>
> I was telling him just now that where door varnish jobs often fail is along
> the lower parts and people sometimes think this is due to water splashing
> on
> the lower part of the door.  That?s not the problem.... The problem is that
> often the lower EDGE of the door doesn?t get varnished, and it wicks up
> water, and that?s what can cause the varnish to lift.  Water on top of
> varnish is no problem, but water coming into the wood can be.
>
> Again - I'm not selling Epi on this list - the information I've given is
> applicable to anyone's varnish.
>
> And, as I guess you folks can guess, I find this stuff very interesting.  I
> hope you do too!
>
> Gord #426 Surprise
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 25/11/13 11:12 AM, "Jim Davis" <a30240 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Gord wrote  "The best way to seal wood from water intrusion is by means
> of
> > heavily thinned varnish.    Thinned 50/50 with solvent, it will be as
> thin as
> > water and really get into the wood.  It's a terrific wood sealer."
> >
> > This is the same technique I have used for a long time.  I sand with 120
> just
> > before varnishing bare teak and wipe it down with either alcohol or
> acetone.
> > I start with 50/50 spar varnish and mineral spirits and simply brush it
> on.  I
> > try for two (three) coats a day without sanding between coats.  If the
> surface
> > is soft, or tacky you can apply wet on wet.  Once the surface has
> started to
> > gloss then let it dry well and sand with ~180, dust and tack cloth.   For
> > building up the coats use either Epifanes Wood Finish or a good spar
> varnish.
> > With the Epifanes you don't need to sand between coats, but do need to
> top
> > coat with a real varnish.  This produces a finish that last as long as
> you
> > recoat it in the spring and fall.  Where I have a failure do to water
> > intrusion, or dinging it, I sand or scrape the affected area and build
> it up
> > the same way.
> >
> > Just a side thought.  Personally I don't like the modern marine
> varnishes.
> > They are too thin.  I try to use the old fashioned McCloskey Man O War
> Spar
> > Varnish. It is an old high resin finish that is much thicker than the
> > newfangled stuff.
> >
> >
> > Jim Davis
> > Privateer Isa Lei
> >
> > If man does find the solution for world peace it will be the most
> > revolutionary reversal of his record we have ever known.
> >
> > George C. Marshall
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > These businesses support your Association:
> > http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> > Please support them.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-List mailing list
> > Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> > http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:23:11 -0800
> From: gregr at nethere.com
> To: public-list at lists.alberg30.org
> Subject: [Public-List] Liferaft Storage
> Message-ID: <1385403791.5293958f74780 at webmail.nethere.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I'm in the process of adding a Viking RescYou 4 person life raft to Ayla.
> What are the good locations to store it?
>
> Aft Lazarette: Fairly easy access. I try to only load the aft compartment
> with light stuff like cushions and fenders. Ayla already squats a bit due
> to the Yanmar 2GM. I'm not sure that another 60lbs would make much of a
> difference but it's going in the wrong direction...
>
> Port Lazarette: Battery 2 in here to have it up higher to protect it. Also
> used for 5 gal water jug and sails. The battery and water help to balance
> the fuel on the Starboard side.
>
> Starboard Lazarette: Original diesel tank. Boat maintenance stuff like
> bucket, boat brush, etc... Try to not had weight to the ~90lbs of fuel.
>
> Cabin top between mast and turtle: Might be tough to launch from here in
> truly lousy conditions. Might further reduce visibility forward.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:48:38 -0500
> From: Gordon Laco <mainstay at csolve.net>
> To: Alberg 30 Public List -- open to all
>         <public-list at lists.alberg30.org>
> Subject: Re: [Public-List] Liferaft Storage
> Message-ID: <CEB905B6.15306%mainstay at csolve.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Good day -
>
> My only direct experience with life rafts was when I served as a consultant
> on the television show 'Survivorman' in which Les Stroud is sent into
> various environments and copes for five days with what one might expect to
> have at hand.  Sometimes he's been in the desert, sometimes a swamp, the
> one
> I did with him was assuming he'd had to abandon a yacht at sea and live in
> a
> life raft for five days.
>
> The production company made a deal with Switlik for the use of one of their
> four person life rafts; but they backed out at the last minute suggesting
> that a five day test of a life raft was unrealistic...their representative
> said 'in this day and age anyone anywhere should expect rescue in two
> days'.
>
> I reckon he doesn't read the news nor books much.
>
> We were in a pickle; there we were in Belize about to set Les adrift but
> without a raft.  I hit upon the idea of renting a raft from a yacht
> actually
> on a voyage; there were several yachts around, I knew people would probably
> be glad of the cash and it would add an interesting story point to be using
> a 'real' raft in the midst of a voyage.
>
> The first two rafts we tried (and you can guess where this is going) which
> had both been stored in on-deck canisters, inflated correctly when the
> lanyard was pulled.  The first literally fell to pieces before our eyes.
> You should have seen the look on the owner's face.  The glue had perished
> and the raft sank before our eyes as a bunch of sheets of hypalon rubber.
>
> The second raft didn't quite fall to pieces, but it leaked so badly that we
> couldn't use it.  You should have seen the look on that fellow's face too.
>
> The third raft blew up and...and.... Stayed inflated.  However, when we
> opened the emergency kit, we found twice the amount of food in the
> container, but no water.  You should have seen the look on that fellow's
> face.
>
> Each of these rafts were by name-brand manufacturers you'd all know.  The
> first two had been stored in deck canisters and I reckon baking in the sun
> is what did them in.  The first one was three years past it's repack date,
> the second one year past, as was  the third.
>
> We gave Les a very old Zodiac inflatable boat reckoning that it was
> reasonable to assume a sailor abandoning ship would bring his dink.
>
> Les ended up living during the day in the life raft to get out of the sun,
> but he had to work steadily to keep it inflated and also bailed out.  It
> leaked through it's bottom.
>
> The ancient Zodiac however, performed flawlessly and he slept in it at
> night.  Which was fine except when it rained in which case he really
> suffered.
>
> So what did I come away from that with?  Always observe the repack dates.
> And with regard to stowage - most certainly on-deck stowage is best with
> regard to getting the raft over the side; but beware the effect of the sun
> baking your raft while you're sailing.  I'd suggest only putting it out on
> deck when you're making a passage.
>
> Well there's another long message, I hope it's interesting.
>
> Gord #426 Surprise
>
> On 25/11/13 1:23 PM, "gregr at nethere.com" <gregr at nethere.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I'm in the process of adding a Viking RescYou 4 person life raft to Ayla.
> > What are the good locations to store it?
> >
> > Aft Lazarette: Fairly easy access. I try to only load the aft compartment
> > with light stuff like cushions and fenders. Ayla already squats a bit due
> > to the Yanmar 2GM. I'm not sure that another 60lbs would make much of a
> > difference but it's going in the wrong direction...
> >
> > Port Lazarette: Battery 2 in here to have it up higher to protect it.
> Also
> > used for 5 gal water jug and sails. The battery and water help to balance
> > the fuel on the Starboard side.
> >
> > Starboard Lazarette: Original diesel tank. Boat maintenance stuff like
> > bucket, boat brush, etc... Try to not had weight to the ~90lbs of fuel.
> >
> > Cabin top between mast and turtle: Might be tough to launch from here in
> > truly lousy conditions. Might further reduce visibility forward.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > These businesses support your Association:
> > http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> > Please support them.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Public-List mailing list
> > Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> > http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> These businesses support your Association:
> http://www.alberg30.org/store/A30supporters.html
> Please support them.
> _______________________________________________
> Public-List mailing list
> Public-List at lists.alberg30.org
> http://lists.alberg30.org/listinfo.cgi/public-list-alberg30.org
>
>
> End of Public-List Digest, Vol 2703, Issue 3
> ********************************************
>